No one wants used EVs, making new ones a tougher sell too

[Tianmo]

On 12/27/2023 at 10:05 AM, Tohto said:

I no see lelong at SGcarmart leh

In SG, ppl who buy EV now is got money got pride, limbey throw into the sea also won't lelong one.

 

[bsswan]

On 12/27/2023 at 8:51 AM, inlinesix said:

Juz buy a low mileage car lo.

For ICE car, would you buy a 60k km on the 3rd year?
> 10% degradation happens usually after 160k km.

You should worry what happens after an accident or undercarriage hit something hard.

The problem, outside SG, is that depreciation is so high, that accident or undercarriage scratch could render the car worthless after just 3-4yrs.

With Elon dropping new prices by 20-30%, it makes the case worse to buy secondhand.

Until it's sorted, I won't mind buying an ICE that's done 60k kms in 3yrs, it's a proven workhorse with a couple hundred thousand kms still within reach.

[Tianmo]

On 12/27/2023 at 10:30 AM, Lethalstrike said:

As long as the price is right, there is no such thing as no resale value or demand. If priced to be same depreciation as a new one, of course no demand la 

Yes, there will always be someone who is willing to buy something nobody wants for a reason.

I had a CNG car, which nobody wants, and I had to sell it myself. As I was about to give up and scrap it, one buyer called and came with deposit, and I sold the car a few thousand above scrap.

 

[inlinesix]

On 12/27/2023 at 11:18 AM, bsswan said:

The problem, outside SG, is that depreciation is so high, that accident or undercarriage scratch could render the car worthless after just 3-4yrs.

With Elon dropping new prices by 20-30%, it makes the case worse to buy secondhand.

Until it's sorted, I won't mind buying an ICE that's done 60k kms in 3yrs, it's a proven workhorse with a couple hundred thousand kms still within reach.

As I had mentioned in my last para, the biggest worry is NOT battery degradation.

The biggest worry is accident and undercarriage that got hit.

If the car is substantially used in Sg, you have overthinked.

I am a big Tesla advocate due to its price.

For EV with OMV of $50+k, it has the lowest depreciation.

[Lethalstrike]

On 12/27/2023 at 11:49 AM, inlinesix said:

As I had mentioned in my last para, the biggest worry is NOT battery degradation.

The biggest worry is accident and undercarriage that got hit.

If the car is substantially used in Sg, you have overthinked.

I am a big Tesla advocate due to its price.

For EV with OMV of $50+k, it has the lowest depreciation.

Actually manufacturers can consider to sell battery pack upgrades for their existing line of vehicles, as battery technology is really the area where the technological leap can be substantial. I can imagine one is to buy a used 5 year old EV, then you go the dealer and buy a new improved battery pack, thus your used EV has a even better range and efficiency than before. 

[Tianmo]

On 12/27/2023 at 12:01 PM, Lethalstrike said:

Actually manufacturers can consider to sell battery pack upgrades for their existing line of vehicles, as battery technology is really the area where the technological leap can be substantial. I can imagine one is to buy a used 5 year old EV, then you go the dealer and buy a new improved battery pack, thus your used EV has a even better range and efficiency than before. 

Cost not going to be cheaper than changing the whole battery currently used. And provided the design fits. 

If I am not wrong, EV batteries are not off the shelf, they are co design and made for the car by design.

 

[bsswan]

On 12/27/2023 at 11:49 AM, inlinesix said:

As I had mentioned in my last para, the biggest worry is NOT battery degradation.

The biggest worry is accident and undercarriage that got hit.

If the car is substantially used in Sg, you have overthinked.

I am a big Tesla advocate due to its price.

For EV with OMV of $50+k, it has the lowest depreciation.

A couple in Scotland were to be charged GBP17k (~SGD29k) for a replacement battery after they drove it in the rain. According to the dealer, water ingress is not covered by warranty so, knowing Scotland, not sure how anybody cannot drive in the rain. If an owner drives through our so-called "ponding", which I tend to think is quite nuts anyway in a car with VOLTAGE, it is quite a leap of faith in Elon that their build quality and service quality is better than reputation.

Anyway, if in Singapore we are talking ~SGD20-25k on a car with your noted OMV SGD50k, sorry, it will hardly ever make financial sense.

[Tianmo]

In future, maybe EVs will come with a 5 yrs battery warranty, and the AD will try to sell you another 5 yrs extended warranty (cover by insurance). 

Same as buying TV from courts/HN/BD, first 5 yrs if battery faculty, car one to one exchange from AD. Next 5 yrs, if battery faculty, extended warranty covers car purchase price, change car top up different or buy another car of the same value.

That's how a EV sld be sold, and buying a used EV, the deciding factor will be, first owner got buy extended warranty?

 

[Lethalstrike]

On 12/27/2023 at 12:08 PM, Tianmo said:

Cost not going to be cheaper than changing the whole battery currently used. And provided the design fits. 

If I am not wrong, EV batteries are not off the shelf, they are co design and made for the car by design.

 

My guess is that since a manufacturer is obligated to have spare parts in stock for an X number of years, might as well make it an option to allow customers to buy an improved battery pack as an option with an extended warranty just for the pack. It's really the same as you go AD to change to a genuine replacement part which comes with it's warranty. 

The form factor of the pack has to be kept the same as the old one so they can fit. But the modules and cells inside can be with upgraded chemistry, better efficiency and energy density etc. It's definitely possible technically. 

Business wise maybe doesn't make sense elsewhere except Singapore, as prices of new EVs elsewhere is cheap in comparison to the cost of complete battery replacement. And the manufacturer will always want to sell you a new car, not necessarily a new battery pack 😁

Over here, the purchase of a new EV is definitely a much higher outlay than the cost of a replacement pack.  

[bsswan]

On 12/27/2023 at 12:16 PM, Tianmo said:

In future, maybe EVs will come with a 5 yrs battery warranty, and the AD will try to sell you another 5 yrs extended warranty (cover by insurance). 

Same as buying TV from courts/HN/BD, first 5 yrs if battery faculty, car one to one exchange from AD. Next 5 yrs, if battery faculty, extended warranty covers car purchase price, change car top up different or buy another car of the same value.

That's how a EV sld be sold, and buying a used EV, the deciding factor will be, first owner got buy extended warranty?

 

Problem is warranty doesn't cover half the sh!t that can happen.

The battery pack of a car is easier to fluff an excuse to not pay out for warranty as it is for a TV...... it's not like you take your TV to the garden or void deck during a lightning storm, or drag it along the path to get there.

Thirty years ago, we were tasked to increase our product warranty from 2yrs to 5yrs, including paint. Long story short, we added a line in the owner's manual saying that if paint is flaking, repaint it. This way during any claim we could ask, "Did you follow the owner's manual?" and I task anybody to read the manuals now being handed out with a new car.

[inlinesix]

On 12/27/2023 at 12:12 PM, bsswan said:

A couple in Scotland were to be charged GBP17k (~SGD29k) for a replacement battery after they drove it in the rain. According to the dealer, water ingress is not covered by warranty so, knowing Scotland, not sure how anybody cannot drive in the rain. If an owner drives through our so-called "ponding", which I tend to think is quite nuts anyway in a car with VOLTAGE, it is quite a leap of faith in Elon that their build quality and service quality is better than reputation.

Anyway, if in Singapore we are talking ~SGD20-25k on a car with your noted OMV SGD50k, sorry, it will hardly ever make financial sense.

For SGD29k, it is about 1.5 year depreciation of Model 3

EV has better water proofing than ICE cars.  But loopholes are around the cooling system.

[Lethalstrike]

On 12/27/2023 at 12:31 PM, bsswan said:

Problem is warranty doesn't cover half the sh!t that can happen.

The battery pack of a car is easier to fluff an excuse to not pay out for warranty as it is for a TV...... it's not like you take your TV to the garden or void deck during a lightning storm, or drag it along the path to get there.

Thirty years ago, we were tasked to increase our product warranty from 2yrs to 5yrs, including paint. Long story short, we added a line in the owner's manual saying that if paint is flaking, repaint it. This way during any claim we could ask, "Did you follow the owner's manual?" and I task anybody to read the manuals now being handed out with a new car.

Now most EVs sold here have a battery warranty of 8 years or up to 160,000km whichever comes first. But, if you were to read the manual, it says it's only liable for warranty replacement if state of health (SoH) has degraded to less than 70%. That's quite a lot and I think most won't face a 30% degradation within a 10 years COE cycle. Rest of things like water ingress bla bla wasn't mentioned at all 😁

[bsswan]

On 12/27/2023 at 12:34 PM, inlinesix said:

For SGD29k, it is about 1.5 year depreciation of Model 3

EV has better water proofing than ICE cars.  But loopholes are around the cooling system.

An ICE won't electrocute you.

Nine times from ten, let an ICE dry out and it will fire straight back up again.

I accidentally floated my Sportrak down a raging swollen river in HK after heavy rain, scared the b'jesus out of me but if I had more weight in the tail, I could have made it. Anyway, had to point it to a ditch and climb out the sunroof but an hour later, drove to the office.

[Benarsenal]

On 12/27/2023 at 8:58 AM, Tianmo said:

How long did the mobile phone industry took to finally standardized a simple charger?  And we are not even there yet with standardizing phone batteries.

 

Is only Apple who are different. Apple are like Tesla. Must be extra.

[inlinesix]

On 12/27/2023 at 12:40 PM, bsswan said:

An ICE won't electrocute you.

Nine times from ten, let an ICE dry out and it will fire straight back up again.

I accidentally floated my Sportrak down a raging swollen river in HK after heavy rain, scared the b'jesus out of me but if I had more weight in the tail, I could have made it. Anyway, had to point it to a ditch and climb out the sunroof but an hour later, drove to the office.

There are videos of Tesla driving through knee-deep water without issue.

I will only do that in a pickup truck.

EV runs on 400v archi.

If waterproofing is NOT good, unlikely it can be on the road.

[bsswan]

On 12/27/2023 at 12:42 PM, Benarsenal said:

Is only Apple who are different. Apple are like Tesla. Must be extra.

Technically, it was the cable that was different, not the charger or battery technology.

This is how we ended up with cable that had the three ends combined....... USB2, USB-C and Apple.

[bsswan]

On 12/27/2023 at 12:44 PM, inlinesix said:

There are videos of Tesla driving through knee-deep water without issue.

I will only do that in a pickup truck.

EV runs on 400v archi.

If waterproofing is NOT good, unlikely it can be on the road.

Of course....... luck of the draw. I've seen plenty driving through ponding here and flooding in HK, but it won't be me with any current tech and I would have serious concerns about one then parking nearby, or in a closed space.

[Tohto]

On 12/27/2023 at 11:14 AM, Tianmo said:

In SG, ppl who buy EV now is got money got pride, limbey throw into the sea also won't lelong one.

 

Are you referring to our mod... 😂