Civic6228 6th Gear January 4, 2017 Author Share January 4, 2017 The parf value increase will be insignificant after the ADs have their cut. Even now... For those cars with CEVS rebate... Car buyers seldom see the actual rebate dollar for dollar. When those cars with CEVS penalty are sold, I can guarantee plus chop that the ADs don't absorb it for you. I am still confused. Could you enlighten me. I don't understand what has the CEVS got to do with ADs. My understanding is the rebate given by LTA for the car depending on the Carbon Output. How/where did the ADs get the cut as you mentioned. ADs absord CEVS rebate, now I am even more confused. ↡ Advertisement Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
therock Supersonic January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 (edited) I am still confused. Could you enlighten me. I don't understand what has the CEVS got to do with ADs. My understanding is the rebate given by LTA for the car depending on the Carbon Output. How/where did the ADs get the cut as you mentioned. ADs absord CEVS rebate, now I am even more confused. My interpretation of the situation: A dealer intended to price his one and only Cat A premium car at 125k, which he gauges is an acceptable price point for such a car. So the government comes in with a special tax rebate of 15k, which allows him to lower his price. But he won't go down to 125-15 = 110k, as he feels this will lower his profit and cheapen his car. So he maintains the 125k price, which is slightly higher than the other bread and butter Thai cars, which may not have such a rebate. But now he says, with the tax, it's the only reason why the car can be so cheap.. hence he maintains the premium exclusive feel.. If COE goes up, he will adjust his price upwards, using higher COE costs as a reason. But when the tax is removed, or talk of removal of such a tax is afoot, he warns potential customers that the price will go up.. "quick, buy now", he urges. But in reality after the tax is gone, the initial price may go up, but IMHO, the price won't stray too far from the initial 125k, especially if there are other choices in that range. This is especially the case in hard times, when car sales are down, as the dealer recognises that if his price is too high, he will end up pushing buyers to other choices. In better times, he can of course charge more.. which is why if you look at the premium cars, their prices don't fluctuate as much as percentage wise compared to a Thai or Korean car.. Edited January 4, 2017 by therock 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Civic6228 6th Gear January 4, 2017 Author Share January 4, 2017 My interpretation of the situation: A dealer intended to price his one and only Cat A premium car at 125k, which he gauges is an acceptable price point for such a car. So the government comes in with a special tax rebate of 15k, which allows him to lower his price. But he won't go down to 125-15 = 110k, as he feels this will lower his profit and cheapen his car. So he maintains the 125k price, which is slightly higher than the other bread and butter Thai cars, which may not have such a rebate. But now he says, with the tax, it's the only reason why the car can be so cheap.. hence he maintains the premium exclusive feel.. If COE goes up, he will adjust his price upwards, using higher COE costs as a reason. But when the tax is removed, or talk of removal of such a tax is afoot, he warns potential customers that the price will go up.. "quick, buy now", he urges. But in reality after the tax is gone, the initial price may go up, but IMHO, the price won't stray too far from the initial 125k, especially if there are other choices in that range. This is especially the case in hard times, when car sales are down, as the dealer recognises that if his price is too high, he will end up pushing buyers to other choices. In better times, he can of course charge more.. which is why if you look at the premium cars, their prices don't fluctuate as much as percentage wise compared to a Thai or Korean car.. My understanding is that the ADs will offset the rebate from the listed price .... -5k, 10k, 15k and -20k. I understand what you are saying about ADs adjusting their Listed Price based on CEVS but what I really do not understand is the claim that ADs have their cut on the CEVS which I am totally confused. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangoElite 6th Gear January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 Perhaps another 5% rise of the bar The last round of revision was about 5% more stringent Cars Registered From 1 January 2013 to 30 June 2015 Cars Registered From 1 July 2015 to 30 June 2017 Band Carbon Emission (CO2g/km) Rebate* Surcharge (Only for cars registered from 1 July 2013) Carbon Emission (CO2g/km) Rebate* Surcharge A1 0 to 100 S$20,000 0 to 95 S$30,000 A2 101 to 120 S$15,000 96 to 105 S$15,000 A3 121 to 140 S$10,000 106 to 120 S$10,000 A4 141 to 160 S$5,000 121 to 135 S$5,000 B 161 to 210 S$0 S$0 136 to 185 S$0 S$0 C1 211 to 230 S$5,000 186 to 200 S$5,000 C2 231 to 250 S$10,000 201 to 215 S$10,000 C3 251 to 270 S$15,000 216 to 230 S$15,000 C4 271 & above S$20,000 231 & above S$30,000 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoldjaffa Hypersonic January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 My understanding is that the ADs will offset the rebate from the listed price .... -5k, 10k, 15k and -20k. I understand what you are saying about ADs adjusting their Listed Price based on CEVS but what I really do not understand is the claim that ADs have their cut on the CEVS which I am totally confused. Fuelsaver is saying, if the requirement is more stringent, means likely CEVS penalty can get higher. correspondingly, the ARF gets higher and thus when scrapping the PARF is higher. Vratenza is saying that the PARF value increase will be insignificant after the ADs have their cut. "Have their cut" means their margin. For simple illustration: ARF - $20000 CEVS - Neutral PARF = $10000 For eg: Cost of car = $100000 AD Margin 25% = 25k Sell Price = $125000 Depre = 11.5k per year After ARF - $20000 CEVS - $10000 PARF = $15000 For eg: Cost of car = $110000 (AD pass on the full penalty into its cost price) AD Margin 25% = 27.5k Sell Price = $137500 Depre = 12.25k per year in this case, the higher PARF is insignificant because once AD "have their cut" means add their margin, the enduser lose out more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mkl22 Supersonic January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 (edited) After ARF - $20000 CEVS - $10000 PARF = $15000 For eg: Cost of car = $110000 (AD pass on the full penalty into its cost price) AD Margin 25% = 27.5k Sell Price = $137500 Depre = 12.25k per year in this case, the higher PARF is insignificant because once AD "have their cut" means add their margin, the enduser lose out more. this part is wrong. the penalty does not add to the PARF. or more correctly ARF paid. PARF is still 10000. Edited January 4, 2017 by Mkl22 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoldjaffa Hypersonic January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 (edited) this part is wrong. the penalty does not add to the PARF. or more correctly ARF paid. PARF is still 10000. ah ok. thanks for highlighting! For simple illustration: ARF = $20000 CEVS = Neutral PARF = $10000 For eg: Cost of car = $100000 AD Margin 25% = 25k Sell Price = $125000 Depre = 11.5k per year After ARF = $20000 CEVS = $10000 surcharge PARF = $10000 For eg: Cost of car = $110000 (AD pass on the full penalty into its cost price) AD Margin 25% = 27.5k Sell Price = $137500 Depre = 12.75k per year Edited January 4, 2017 by Theoldjaffa Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Civic6228 6th Gear January 4, 2017 Author Share January 4, 2017 Fuelsaver is saying, if the requirement is more stringent, means likely CEVS penalty can get higher. correspondingly, the ARF gets higher and thus when scrapping the PARF is higher. Vratenza is saying that the PARF value increase will be insignificant after the ADs have their cut. "Have their cut" means their margin. For simple illustration: ARF - $20000 CEVS - Neutral PARF = $10000 For eg: Cost of car = $100000 AD Margin 25% = 25k Sell Price = $125000 Depre = 11.5k per year After ARF - $20000 CEVS - $10000 PARF = $15000 For eg: Cost of car = $110000 (AD pass on the full penalty into its cost price) AD Margin 25% = 27.5k Sell Price = $137500 Depre = 12.25k per year in this case, the higher PARF is insignificant because once AD "have their cut" means add their margin, the enduser lose out more. After ARF - $20000 CEVS - $10000 PARF = $15000 For eg: Cost of car = $110000 (AD pass on the full penalty into its cost price) AD Margin 25% = 27.5k Sell Price = $137500 Depre = 12.25k per year PARF should be .... ( ARF - CEVS ) * 50% ie 5,000 The ARF is only $20,000, the PARF cannot be $15,000. Based on your example. Dep - (137k - 5k)/10 = 13.2k per year Anyway, I dont think ADs works on markup in percentage. Most of them, have a listed price and minus the CEVS rebate if any for the final buy price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoldjaffa Hypersonic January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 (edited) After ARF = $20000 CEVS = $10000 surcharge PARF = $15000 For eg: Cost of car = $110000 (AD pass on the full penalty into its cost price) AD Margin 25% = 27.5k Sell Price = $137500 Depre = 12.25k per year PARF should be .... ( ARF - CEVS ) * 50% ie 5,000 The ARF is only $20,000, the PARF cannot be $15,000. Based on your example. Dep - (137k - 5k)/10 = 13.2k per year Anyway, I dont think ADs works on markup in percentage. Most of them, have a listed price and minus the CEVS rebate if any for the final buy price. lol paiseh, '-' is meant as "refer to", not "negative". therefore i meant to say the 10k is a surcharge. ADs work on a cost plus model. the CEVS rebate is deducted upfront into the ARF paid, means their cost is lowered. then they mark up and sell. CEVS surcharge is added on to the cost of the car. means the cost is higher, and then they mark up to sell. they don't minus away the CEVS rebate from the listed price. Edited January 4, 2017 by Theoldjaffa 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alvinnoob 1st Gear January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 (edited) Dealer won't rebate CEVS, look at vezel price before and after CEVS come into play. It is the market price dealer wants to sell the car at. In the end, buyer get penalty for buying a green car. Thus buy 0 or negative CEVS. Edited January 4, 2017 by Alvinnoob 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspiring1804 1st Gear January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 lol paiseh, '-' is meant as "refer to", not "negative". therefore i meant to say the 10k is a surcharge. ADs work on a cost plus model. the CEVS rebate is deducted upfront into the ARF paid, means their cost is lowered. then they mark up and sell. CEVS surcharge is added on to the cost of the car. means the cost is higher, and then they mark up to sell. they don't minus away the CEVS rebate from the listed price. If u say cev rebate is deducted from the ARF so ADs paid lesser when they bring in the cars. And if what i understood is correct that as a buyer when scraping the car, the cev rebate (e.g. $5000 for qashqai) is deducted from the omv before calculating the PARF. Then does this means a double hit to the buyer in the first place? Firstly the cev rebate is not transferred to the buyer (ADs sell at the price that fits their profit margin regwrdless of the cev rebate amount) and then secondly the cev is deducted from the omv while scrapping car. Is my understanding correct? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoldjaffa Hypersonic January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 If u say cev rebate is deducted from the ARF so ADs paid lesser when they bring in the cars. And if what i understood is correct that as a buyer when scraping the car, the cev rebate (e.g. $5000 for qashqai) is deducted from the omv before calculating the PARF. Then does this means a double hit to the buyer in the first place? Firstly the cev rebate is not transferred to the buyer (ADs sell at the price that fits their profit margin regwrdless of the cev rebate amount) and then secondly the cev is deducted from the omv while scrapping car. Is my understanding correct?No double hit PARF is 50% of ARF. The OMV is not in the picture already. If ARF is 20k, CEVS rebate is 5k, then PARF is 7.5k. If CEVS is neutral, then PARF is 10k. If CEVS penalty is 10k, PARF is 10k but you pay 10k on top. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
therock Supersonic January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 If cevs was really a push for greener cars they won't ask for the rebate back. That's not a rebate when you have to pay it back!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangoElite 6th Gear January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 our national interests in our own economy and self defence strategies mean we will never be a nation that will embrace and promote truly green and non-fossil fuel consumption 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocy Hypersonic January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 (edited) I have already mentioned (in the COE thread) CEVS review as one of the wild card that have an impact on COE movement, and just by looking at the few posts above, I guess history will repeat itself. ADs will get their SE to tell potential buyers that if CEVS is cut, the price would be up by $10 - $15K, and some will just rush in to get the "best" deal, thereby causing COE premium to surge... And if you think it will just affect smaller cc or diesel car, you are wrong. It shall also affect cars with higher CO2 emission as well (maybe from 160g/km onward), as these cars will soon be slapped with CEVS surcharges of up to $30K (or maybe more?) once LTA revised the criteria for Neutral Band. Like that COE gonna find more support and trend upwards again. Edited January 4, 2017 by Pocy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspiring1804 1st Gear January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 Pardon me... My double hit means: 1. The cev rebate is not transferred to the buyer 2. The cev rebate amount is deducted from the ARF before calculating the PARF (ARF 20k - CEV 5k, then divide by 2= 7.5k) No double hit PARF is 50% of ARF. The OMV is not in the picture already. If ARF is 20k, CEVS rebate is 5k, then PARF is 7.5k. If CEVS is neutral, then PARF is 10k. If CEVS penalty is 10k, PARF is 10k but you pay 10k on top. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vratenza Supersonic January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 I think some of the others here have explained to you how CEVs rebates are being abused by the ADs for their bottom line instead of passing to back to the consumers. Don't need to worry about your PARF calculations ... Just buy a CEVs rebate vehicle, log onto onemotoring, and you will have your nicely discount PARF value displayed for you on the screen And btw, your friendly neighborhood 2nd hand car dealers will be sure to low ball you with this recalculated PARF value plus some pity money when you try to sell it next time. After ARF - $20000 CEVS - $10000 PARF = $15000 For eg: Cost of car = $110000 (AD pass on the full penalty into its cost price) AD Margin 25% = 27.5k Sell Price = $137500 Depre = 12.25k per year PARF should be .... ( ARF - CEVS ) * 50% ie 5,000 The ARF is only $20,000, the PARF cannot be $15,000. Based on your example. Dep - (137k - 5k)/10 = 13.2k per year Anyway, I dont think ADs works on markup in percentage. Most of them, have a listed price and minus the CEVS rebate if any for the final buy price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friendstar Supercharged January 4, 2017 Share January 4, 2017 Dealer won't rebate CEVS, look at vezel price before and after CEVS come into play. It is the market price dealer wants to sell the car at. In the end, buyer get penalty for buying a green car. Thus buy 0 or negative CEVS. Exactly. U summed it correctly ↡ Advertisement Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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