Should PRs Leaving SG be Allowed to Keep HDB Sales Proceed?

[Jman888]

yep that's a fair interpretation.

 

although I did remember some official (if I recall correctly) stand that all HDB flats are subsidised.

 

 

subsidised before resale, once resale it no longer consider subsidised thought term and conditions apply.

[The_Bear]

As long as they don't come back for 3 generations.

[Acemundo]

 

 

subsidised before resale, once resale it no longer consider subsidised thought term and conditions apply.

I think the rationale was that the first hand buyers did receive an outright subsidy+ first hand flats are also cheaper than 2nd hand in comparable area by quite a significant bit. and that will have an effect on the resale hdb price subsequently transacted. resale hdb prices takes their cues from first hand hdb prices. a bit like why second hand car market prices themselves based on first hand car market depreciation+some differentiation due to age, popularity etc

Edited June 18, 2014 by Acemundo

[Darryn]

precisely......PRs may have it easier than some singaporeans in buying and selling hdb.

 

as I said in latter post, public house is a rare commodity in other country so they have very little need to legislate against unrestricted buying and selling by PR. we are first in the world when comes to providing so many subsidised public flat yet our legislation and administration towards the public flats are found wanting.

1. How so that PRs have it easier than citizens in buying and selling? More restrictions are placed on them (eg: rental duration, minimum occupation period)

 

2. To me - HDB is not really "public" housing. The commonly understood definition of public housing is subsidized housing provided by the govt for the benefit of the "poor". In what would is 75% of the country poor? And in what country does "subsidy" mean "higher than production costs but lower than market price" - not in any dictionary I read that's for sure.

 

 

subsidised before resale, once resale it no longer consider subsidised thought term and conditions apply.

 

Just to note it is a "market subsidy" - which is a slightly different beast than an outright subsidy - but in any case, PR don't qualify for this "subsidy"

 

(To me, selling HDB policy as "subsidised" housing is one of the best snow jobs in history)

[Joseph22]

Why cannot??

Because Singaporean cannot and not happy cannot so PR also cannot??

 

No wonder the late gearoil always scold us sinkie.

[Darryn]

Yes - the most logical post today !

Must be fair mah... Must apply the same rules !

This will make them think hard...

Except the same rules do apply -

 

can only withdraw money if give up Singapore PR

You can withdraw your money if give up Singapore Citizen.

[Acemundo]

1. How so that PRs have it easier than citizens in buying and selling? More restrictions are placed on them (eg: rental duration, minimum occupation period)

 

2. To me - HDB is not really "public" housing. The commonly understood definition of public housing is subsidized housing provided by the govt for the benefit of the "poor". In what would is 75% of the country poor? And in what country does "subsidy" mean "higher than production costs but lower than market price" - not in any dictionary I read that's for sure.

1. you remembered the outlawed sibling scheme for PR? on paper it doesn't make it more difficult for Singaporeans but if you factor in the real situation, it does make it easier for some PR. don't forget those restrictions you spoke about for PR, only came into play recent years I think 2012. it has been free play for a long time. the flawed sibling scheme was also amended in recent years.

 

2. refer to my previous post. 2nd hand market takes cue from 1st hand market. the 1st hand market subsidy is quite significant.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Acemundo

[Darryn]

 

Because this is the CPF rule.

 

If every citizen abides by this rule, then why not PR and foreigners?

 

PRs DO abide by this rule - can only withdraw money if give up PR. CPF is not a bank account, cannot happily withdraw as and when see fit - can only withdraw if leave Singapore permanently and give up PR status

 

Exactly the same way a citizen can withdraw money if give up citizen status.

[Sosaria]

If I'm not mistaken there are different policies for different PRs. Even for those PRs from malaysia, west and east malaysia, different rules apply.

 

I don't know what's the policy these days but some time ago, malaysia was complaining that its west-siders could not withdraw their CPF until hitting 55 years of age. This peculiar rule was perhaps - here I'm guessing - a legacy from our linked history and the fact that most of the foreigners working here in those old days were from up north.

 

So for a west malaysian spr that decided to pack up and leave singapore before 55 years old - their CPF was also stuck here.

 

Nevertheless any move to retain PRs' CPF has little ground to stand on, other than the principle of "equal misery", or joy of seeing other people suffer the same rules as locals.

 

CPF funds has always been trumpeted as a savings for retirement, and since these foreigners are not retiring here and thereby not burdening the state anymore - how to justify retaining their funds?

 

I believe the real problem that needs fixing is to look into the issue of PRs using their CPF to buy public housing, enjoying the advantages, yet still having flexibility of cashing out.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Sosaria

[Darryn]

1. you remembered the outlawed sibling scheme for PR? on paper it doesn't make it more difficult for Singaporeans but if you factor in the real situation, it does make it easier for some PR. don't forget those restrictions you spoke about for PR, only came into play recent years I think 2012. it has been free play for a long time. the flawed sibling scheme was also amended in recent years.

 

2. refer to my previous post. 2nd hand market takes cue from 1st hand market. the 1st hand market subsidy is quite significant.

Not really -

 

even the govt calls HDB a "market subsidy". The cost of building a HDB flat is still below its selling price.

 

If it was really a subsidy - the price would be much much lower. (this is an ongoing debate about HDB - and I still remember the time the govt stopped calling HDB "subsidized" and started using the term "market subsidy" - which, funnily enough, was around when MBT was in charge and there was all the surplus flats)

[Jman888]

 

Nevertheless any move to retain PRs' CPF has little ground to stand on, other than the principle of "equal misery", or joy of seeing other people suffer the same rules as locals.

 

CPF funds has always been trumpeted as a savings for retirement, and since these foreigners are not retiring here and thereby not burdening the state anymore - how to justify retaining their funds?

 

 

 

want to die all die together

[Tianake]

If I'm not mistaken there are different policies for different PRs. Even for those PRs from malaysia, west and east malaysia, different rules apply.

 

I don't know what's the policy these days but some time ago, malaysia was complaining that its west-siders could not withdraw their CPF until hitting 55 years of age.

 

So for a west malaysian spr that decided to pack up and leave singapore before 55 years old - their CPF was also stuck here.

 

Nevertheless any move to retain PRs' CPF has little ground to stand on, other than the principle of "equal misery", or joy of seeing other people suffer the same rules as locals.

 

CPF funds has always been trumpeted as a savings for retirement, and since these foreigners are not retiring here and thereby not burdening the state anymore - how to justify retaining their funds?

 

if PRs decide to pack up and withdraw all the money from the CPF, i think the best way is for CPF to pay them back all the money based on normal bank saving rate.

 

Likewise for Singaporeans who want to withdraw their money from CPF, they do also take out the money based on normal bank saving rate.

 

like that fair right?

[Kar_lover]

actually I have no issue with pr being allowed to take their proceeds of hdb flat sales. if don't allow, it is creating an awkward system whereby the transaction is allowed but the proceeds to the transaction have to be encumbered.

 

the real problem is the ease of PR buying and selling hdb........

 

That's been taken care of already. Now have to be PR for 3yrs first before can buy HDB flat. Plus with the ABSD which PRs are subjected to even if it is their first flat (Singaporeans are not), I don't think there is anymore issue with PR buying/selling/flipping flats. For info, HDB resale price is now very low with many places selling below valuation. In fact I am wondering when Singaporeans will start complaining that their flats are no longer valuable assets.

[Darryn]

 

if PRs decide to pack up and withdraw all the money from the CPF, i think the best way is for CPF to pay them back all the money based on normal bank saving rate.

 

Likewise for Singaporeans who want to withdraw their money from CPF, they do also take out the money based on normal bank saving rate.

 

like that fair right?

 

Then if PR use CPF for housing loan - only have to pay into it at bank saving rate?

 

If Citizen renounce and leave, only get bank saving rate?

[Darryn]

As a point of info do note

 

 

Polling Requirements

MUP will proceed only if 75% or more of a precinct’s eligible Singapore Citizen households have voted in favour of the Standard Package at the poll.

SAI/LUP will be provided only if:

• 75% or more of the Singapore Citizen eligible households in the precinct have voted in favour of the Standard Package, and
• 75% or more of the Singapore Citizen eligible households in the block have voted in favour of the SAI/LUP.

 

Edited June 18, 2014 by Darryn

[Acemundo]

Not really -

 

even the govt calls HDB a "market subsidy". The cost of building a HDB flat is still below its selling price.

 

If it was really a subsidy - the price would be much much lower. (this is an ongoing debate about HDB - and I still remember the time the govt stopped calling HDB "subsidized" and started using the term "market subsidy" - which, funnily enough, was around when MBT was in charge and there was all the surplus flats)

your disagreement is centered on the issue of "subsidy". that is contentious I agree because the HDB makes no real loss, their only loss is higher profits they could have gotten if they sell at market value. this one I can agree to disagree. but the housing grant is real. it is hard cash given out.

 

well let's go one step further and not argue over technicalities of the word subsidy. let's get into discussion of real world buyer and seller behaviour.

 

if it wasn't significantly cheaper, why would all people still prefer buy HDB than private condo? HDB flats, price-wise, are not exactly private apartments . although such PR if they buy and sell HDB are not exactly raiding the reserves, the HDB "forsaken profits" could have be an additional factor taken into consideration.

[Darryn]

Also to point out

 

 

 

Citizenship
Flat owners who wish to sublet their flat must be a Singapore Citizen (SC). Singapore Permanent Resident (SPR) flat owners are not allowed to sublet their flat.

 

[Acemundo]

 

That's been taken care of already. Now have to be PR for 3yrs first before can buy HDB flat. Plus with the ABSD which PRs are subjected to even if it is their first flat (Singaporeans are not), I don't think there is anymore issue with PR buying/selling/flipping flats. For info, HDB resale price is now very low with many places selling below valuation. In fact I am wondering when Singaporeans will start complaining that their flats are no longer valuable assets.

 

I know now is less of a problem now but it is not entirely the hdb policies that kept these problems in check. it is more of the cooling measures and they affected all and sundry, citizens included.

Also to point out

 

 

 

 

hehe I was expecting someone to cite this.

 

my ex landlord had one easy way to circumvent it. one of them, amongst the couple, convert to citizen.