How problematic is VW's 7 speed DSG?

[Mercury1]

Mate I think we're going a full circle here.

 

Buyers prefer AD warranty for touch wood any issues like engine/gearbox breakdown, I also find outside workshop more proficient for servicing but with PML I get convenience with the service locations. For me I drop my car and go either to work or to the airport so convenience is key.

 

Anyway back to warranty, foremost I do believe that the ZF 7 Speed GB is more reliable than the VW 7 speed DSG but mine is basically based on internet and hearsay so no solid experience. We have to agree to disagree on this if anyone see's otherwise.

 

Using warranty as a gauge BMW Asia or PML have done their homework and they sell the additional 2 year warranty (covering engine & gearbox) as they know chances of the GB having issues within this period is very very low. Its like selling extended warranty on a TV or insurance to the population. Other parts which are more prone to failure are actually excluded from this warranty wiring, upholstery etc which is why I won't extend.

 

But I will not use this to delve into the reliability of the VW gearbox and why the agent does not give 5 years as there could be numerous reason for this. This just emphasizes that Bmw or PML (who are such cheapskates) has confidence on the GB reliability to even roll out such a program since they know its a cash cow. 

 

In a nutshell the ZF GB has proven reliable how this compares with Vw dry GB will be up to personal views.

 

Bro, technically BMW does not give warranty. It's PML that does.

 

So does my outside workshop give warranty for my PI BMW. It's technically incorrect to say "BMW give 5 years warranty." Actually if I am not wrong, BMW Asia only covers the first year. Even the standard 2nd and 3rd year is actually covered by PML. I need to verify the facts, but this is what I can remember.

 

I take warranty coverage with a pinch of salt. I don't think it's an indication of the reliability of the car. Some people may have been lucky to have their claims gone smoothly, it hasn't for me (except for 1 claim for aircon problem from Nissan.) I'd be more than happy to share my experience over a f2f coffee session.

 

To each his own because I prefer to trust my own workshop where I can see the mechanic work than a dealership where you send your car into a blackhole and it comes back. You don't know what happened to it.

 

Edited December 28, 2016 by Mercury1

[LerLim]

U trust sales guys or legal paperwork?

 

http://www.pml.com.sg/extendedwarranty/terms.html

Lol.. it's ok.. sales guys is not my level.. u can believe what u believe in.

 

Cheers!

[Detach8]

Mate I think we're going a full circle here.

 

Buyers prefer AD warranty for touch wood any issues like engine/gearbox breakdown, I also find outside workshop more proficient for servicing but with PML I get convenience with the service locations. For me I drop my car and go either to work or to the airport so convenience is key.

 

Anyway back to warranty, foremost I do believe that the ZF 7 Speed GB is more reliable than the VW 7 speed DSG but mine is basically based on internet and hearsay so no solid experience. We have to agree to disagree on this if anyone see's otherwise.

 

Using warranty as a gauge BMW Asia or PML have done their homework and they sell the additional 2 year warranty (covering engine & gearbox) as they know chances of the GB having issues within this period is very very low. Its like selling extended warranty on a TV or insurance to the population. Other parts which are more prone to failure are actually excluded from this warranty wiring, upholstery etc which is why I won't extend.

 

But I will not use this to delve into the reliability of the VW gearbox and why the agent does not give 5 years as there could be numerous reason for this. This just emphasizes that Bmw or PML (who are such cheapskates) has confidence on the GB reliability to even roll out such a program since they know its a cash cow. 

 

In a nutshell the ZF GB has proven reliable how this compares with Vw dry GB will be up to personal views.

 

I think we are done discussing the reliability of the transmission in any case. 

 

The point I'm trying to make is that warranty is not representative of the reliability. Given the number of issues people around me have had with their BMWs, 5 year warranty is kind of a false hope LOL, very dim flickering light. But that is just my personal opinion. We can all agree to disagree here, not trying to force my opinion. There'll always be people who want to buy cars under warranty, and there will be people like me waiting to buy those cars disposed after warranty.

[Mercury1]

Difference of opinion is what keeps the markets buoyant, agree to disagree  

 

Happy Holidays!

 

I think we are done discussing the reliability of the transmission in any case. 

 

The point I'm trying to make is that warranty is not representative of the reliability. Given the number of issues people around me have had with their BMWs, 5 year warranty is kind of a false hope LOL, very dim flickering light. But that is just my personal opinion. We can all agree to disagree here, not trying to force my opinion. There'll always be people who want to buy cars under warranty, and there will be people like me waiting to buy those cars disposed after warranty.

 

[Rskc]

Wow...I didn't know my post of vw singapore refusing to accept my challenge to them to extend the gb warranty before I sign on the dotted line to blow up into a tread about pml, bmw asia honouring the warranty. My bad. 

 

I am not saying pml is fantastic. They are not cos they are bloody ex for repair after warranty and that is why R2D is always my choice of ws after warranty. I want to just state facts that I have encountered myself, whether from pml or vw singapore, not hearsay, for the bros here to make known decision. :)

 

The fact that vw singapore did not instill the confidence in me on the refusal of request of extended gb warranty remains. However, knowing this, it does not stop me from looking and seriously considered at A3 before I decided on f30. If I had chosen A3, I would have gone in knowing what to expect and set aside extra $$.

 

Point is know what u are getting into and then just enjoy! I did that with my stilo with selespeed and e90 (after warranty) and havent regret a single bit although they both burnt my pocket quite a bit. Ha!

 

Happy festive season!!

[Yuan]

bro he's referring to the dry clutch DSG, and he claims why only VW is using it and not others. so i replied lor.

 

he's not referring to the wet clutch DSGs.

 

For the current "dry" clutch used in VW models, they came from LuK.

 

Borg is for the "wet" clutch found in higher capacities of VW.

[Mercury1]

Congrats man, which F30 you got? Can share your views on the 3 series thread? always good to find another F30 driver 

 

Wow...I didn't know my post of vw singapore refusing to accept my challenge to them to extend the gb warranty before I sign on the dotted line to blow up into a tread about pml, bmw asia honouring the warranty. My bad. 

 

I am not saying pml is fantastic. They are not cos they are bloody ex for repair after warranty and that is why R2D is always my choice of ws after warranty. I want to just state facts that I have encountered myself, whether from pml or vw singapore, not hearsay, for the bros here to make known decision. :)

 

The fact that vw singapore did not instill the confidence in me on the refusal of request of extended gb warranty remains. However, knowing this, it does not stop me from looking and seriously considered at A3 before I decided on f30. If I had chosen A3, I would have gone in knowing what to expect and set aside extra $$.

 

Point is know what u are getting into and then just enjoy! I did that with my stilo with selespeed and e90 (after warranty) and havent regret a single bit although they both burnt my pocket quite a bit. Ha!

 

Happy festive season!!

 

[Fels]

bro he's referring to the dry clutch DSG, and he claims why only VW is using it and not others. so i replied lor.

 

he's not referring to the wet clutch DSGs.

I'm not sure if Davidtch knows what is he saying too. Don't know how did he came to that conclusion. The dry twin clutch DQ200 for the dsg7 in vw is developed by LuK. Their DQ250 wet twin clutch for the dsg6 in vw was developed by borg warner. The subsequent DQ500 was an inhouse development by VW. The clutches are ok actually. If we do check, the problems that are causing all the immobility came from the mechatronics.

[Detach8]

I'm not sure if Davidtch knows what is he saying too. Don't know how did he came to that conclusion. The dry twin clutch DQ200 for the dsg7 in vw is developed by LuK. Their DQ250 wet twin clutch for the dsg6 in vw was developed by borg warner. The subsequent DQ500 was an inhouse development by VW. The clutches are ok actually. If we do check, the problems that are causing all the immobility came from the mechatronics.

 

So all the DSG mechatronics are fail? They have similar mechanical structures anyway, so what makes the transmission mechatronics made by LuK less reliable than Borg Warner or VW's DQ500.

[Fels]

So all the DSG mechatronics are fail? They have similar mechanical structures anyway, so what makes the transmission mechatronics made by LuK less reliable than Borg Warner or VW's DQ500.

Lol... my friend. Maybe you ought to read my post carefully to understand the context.

[Ct3833]

Lol... my friend. Maybe you ought to read my post carefully to understand the context.

your posts have been educational, but you may want to ignore some of the response. 

[merc280v6]

I'm not sure if Davidtch knows what is he saying too. Don't know how did he came to that conclusion. The dry twin clutch DQ200 for the dsg7 in vw is developed by LuK. Their DQ250 wet twin clutch for the dsg6 in vw was developed by borg warner. The subsequent DQ500 was an inhouse development by VW. The clutches are ok actually. If we do check, the problems that are causing all the immobility came from the mechatronics.

So mechatronics is the main culprit ... and who built the MU then?

If it's VW, then I got no words for them to even come up with a prone-to-failure device.

Can only avoid such ...

[Fels]

So mechatronics is the main culprit ... and who built the MU then?

If it's VW, then I got no words for them to even come up with a prone-to-failure device.

Can only avoid such ... ðð¼

The mechatronic is a complex unit of precisely manufactured parts. It is a combinition of electronically managed, mechanically executed and hydraulically resultant unit to operate the engagement of the release bearing to push/relief the disphragm spring to press on or relief the clutch disc to the pressure plate which is connected to the in this case... The correct input shaft either hollow or solid. And to engage/disengage the correct synchronizer to the intended input shaft, including parking gear lock etc. The mechatronic transfers the oil into the different oil routes to ensure the pressurisation of the intended route to actuate the right solenoid to achieve this. As such, the complicated and diversed component comes from a hugely divided source. So no one knows for sure exactly where and who made what part unless you have the PPAP documents and the allocated incoming inspection list batch identifiable one by one. What I think is that part of the APQP had been compromised leading to the failures. However, unless we get to see the 8D/CAR documentations involved, no one can tell for sure what rectifications were carried out and if the evaluation worked. I attended a symposium in Germany that showcased many products including this LuK clutch. My opinion is that the clutch itself is nothing wrong. It's a further evolution of the existing matured diaphragm spring actuated dry clutch assembly to fit a dual input shaft transmission. Chances for such a simple principle to go wrong is slim.

 

The failures have been known to involve mostly the mechatronics and replacement of that helped to re-mobilise the car. This is known in the market.

 

But the unanswered questions that involve this problem is overwhelming. We don't know how or what we can do to not get ourselves stranded. Thus the best idea is to shun this gearbox.

[Rskc]

Congrats man, which F30 you got? Can share your views on the 3 series thread? always good to find another F30 driver 

 

Hihi ;). Bo lui so I got the cheapest f30 316i when pml was running the promo then in 2015.

 

Views are pretty much what the bros summed up in the 3 series thread: sound insulation is WORSE than my e90; good torque for city driving; fc is better than my e90 by 20%, mostly city. Driving dynamics further improved after upgrade to 18". Competent car for me to push around a corner imho. No issue for 1.5 years since new. Colleague claimed he ever pushed his new 318i to 180kmh hitting his max 220kmh but still kana overtaken by malaysian cars at nshw. 一山比一山高吧. Hahaha! 

 

Ok let's go back to vw topic. :)

[merc280v6]

Fels:

 

Your last post was technically, very informative.

[Fels]

Fels:

 

Your last post was technically, very informative. ðð¼

 

"The mechatronic transfers the oil into the different oil routes to ensure the pressurisation of the intended route to actuate the right solenoid to achieve this."

 

This clearly points to the criticality of the state of the oil inside the MU block, in its ability to transfer hydraulic pressure through the intended route to actuate the right solenoid valve.

 

If that oil is hydrolysed (due to high heat & moisture), or electrolysed (due to sparodic potential difference from bi-metallic junctions) ... it will then lose its hydraulic fluid properties!

 

Worse when gas bubbles form within and the oil (as a result of hrdrolysis reactions, or electrolysis) is no longer deemed incompressible - which is a key attribute for hydraulic fluid mechanics!

 

Solenoids cannot be actuated. ð

DSG stalls! Died-ed

 

But whatever it is about VW's DSG, you're dang right ðð¼

 

"But the unanswered questions that involve this problem is overwhelming. We don't know how or what we can do to not get ourselves stranded. Thus the best idea is to shun this gearbox."

There's also the issue of heat dissipation. The oil in the wet serves 3 primary functions. Centrifugal force stabilization, actuation and cooling. The dry however seems rather ambiguous on the cooling part. One of the participants during the symposium in Germany asked the presenter about this and the reply was mind boggling. In summary, Unlike the wet counterpart that has much more oil to help cool the transmission, the dry version has much lesser. This in turn accumulates more heat leading to more wear and tear in the system. The oil becomes more easily contaminated with worn particles. So I advised one of of bros to shorten his oil change frequency to 30k. It helped to postpone the inevitable failure to 70k. He's still surviving but looking to change his car. The worries of getting stranded is no joke. I'm not in the gearbox industry but i don't think we need to be there to have the same questions.

 

So, still the same old opinion... too many unanswered questions. Better don't take the risk.

[Yuan]

There's also the issue of heat dissipation. The oil in the wet serves 3 primary functions. Centrifugal force stabilization, actuation and cooling. The dry however seems rather ambiguous on the cooling part. One of the participants during the symposium in Germany asked the presenter about this and the reply was mind boggling. In summary, Unlike the wet counterpart that has much more oil to help cool the transmission, the dry version has much lesser. This in turn accumulates more heat leading to more wear and tear in the system. The oil becomes more easily contaminated with worn particles. So I advised one of of bros to shorten his oil change frequency to 30k. It helped to postpone the inevitable failure to 70k. He's still surviving but looking to change his car. The worries of getting stranded is no joke. I'm not in the gearbox industry but i don't think we need to be there to have the same questions.

 

So, still the same old opinion... too many unanswered questions. Better don't take the risk.

 

I am always quoted and cited in these VW or mechatronic failure discussion threads.  

[Mercury1]

Haha doubt it's boh lui. I think you have more sense than I have.

 

When it comes to driving fast biggest balls > faster car any day  

 

Anyway 8 Speed ZF won't go wrong haha opps, okok back to Vw topic 

 

Hihi ;). Bo lui so I got the cheapest f30 316i when pml was running the promo then in 2015.

 

Views are pretty much what the bros summed up in the 3 series thread: sound insulation is WORSE than my e90; good torque for city driving; fc is better than my e90 by 20%, mostly city. Driving dynamics further improved after upgrade to 18". Competent car for me to push around a corner imho. No issue for 1.5 years since new. Colleague claimed he ever pushed his new 318i to 180kmh hitting his max 220kmh but still kana overtaken by malaysian cars at nshw. 一山比一山高吧. Hahaha! 

 

Ok let's go back to vw topic. :)

 

Educational stuff   

There's also the issue of heat dissipation. The oil in the wet serves 3 primary functions. Centrifugal force stabilization, actuation and cooling. The dry however seems rather ambiguous on the cooling part. One of the participants during the symposium in Germany asked the presenter about this and the reply was mind boggling. In summary, Unlike the wet counterpart that has much more oil to help cool the transmission, the dry version has much lesser. This in turn accumulates more heat leading to more wear and tear in the system. The oil becomes more easily contaminated with worn particles. So I advised one of of bros to shorten his oil change frequency to 30k. It helped to postpone the inevitable failure to 70k. He's still surviving but looking to change his car. The worries of getting stranded is no joke. I'm not in the gearbox industry but i don't think we need to be there to have the same questions.

So, still the same old opinion... too many unanswered questions. Better don't take the risk.