Shooting the Singapore Sar21

[Shibadog]

The weight and length of SAR21, M16 and M4 are factual and public information, isn't it?

 

And you know that scope can be attached to M16/M4?

 

 

yup scope (I can't recall if 4x or 6x) as well as laser sight.

 

not sure if weight comparison against sar21 should be using weight of a barebones m16 or one with the scope and/or laser sight.

[Volvobrick]

ya...its due to the handguards and its rather bulky! Some shooters says the feeling of front heavy makes the sar21 more stable during firing as you really have to grip the guards with a stronger hold. I only tried aiming on a standing position with my son's sar21.......never tried the actual life firing and i found the m16 is much more lighter.

wei......must respect them hor......first ever invisible firearm.......can pass through any airport security system...

[Evillusion]

Weight to me is a major issue - an empty SAR 21 (without mag) weighs about the same as a M16 with 2 fully loaded 30 rd mags. For me I would rather have 60 more rounds with me. They got to make it lighter.

 

Plus M16 lighter and thus would be better for the old SOC,,,,

 

PS Fired the SAR 21 several years in fam shoot - Other than the optical sight and laser, nothing else I prefer over the M16. Changing mag was awkward and slow.

old birds like us prefer the m16 as were trained using them. I was a saw gunner and everytime comes ration/water party i would swopped them for an m16....makes the load more bearable and its simply clumsy when you have to sling a saw over the shoulders due to its length.

But sar 21 was a major advancement over the 1st batch of sar.....forgot the name. SAF was introducing them when i was about to ROD.....looks kinda funny.

[macrosszero]

old birds like us prefer the m16 as were trained using them. I was a saw gunner and everytime comes ration/water party i would swopped them for an m16....makes the load more bearable and its simply clumsy when you have to sling a saw over the shoulders due to its length.

But sar 21 was a major advancement over the 1st batch of sar.....forgot the name. SAF was introducing them when i was about to ROD.....looks kinda funny.

 

If you meant the SAR-80, in my time it was issued to support units and was heavier than M-16 rifles although it was supposedly more accurate. Construction-wise it was rather basic with a sheet metal upper receiver assembly, rather than the M-16's cast metal one. 

 

[Volvobrick]

Only thing good about the SAR80 is that it is cheap, using stamped metal rather than expensive forged aluminium in the M16.  Downright ugly, looked like something from NORICO (China).

[Evillusion]

If you meant the SAR-80, in my time it was issued to support units and was heavier than M-16 rifles although it was supposedly more accurate. Construction-wise it was rather basic with a sheet metal upper receiver assembly, rather than the M-16's cast metal one.

 

Yes....this the wan. Heard it was used by the armored battalions as a testing and evaluation purpose. Looks ugly....but then its from the 80s and CIS first.

[Pocus]

repeat post

Edited June 11, 2019 by Pocus

[Pocus]

Apologies for resurrecting this thread. Saw a picture of our boys marching with SAR21 in another thread, and wanted to make some comments.

 

bp_forum2_100619_21.jpg

 

Just look at how long these SAR21 are, when strapped to the body of those boys. I have handled SAR21 during the last few cycles of my reservist, and I remembered it being substantially heavier than the M16. Does it make sense for our Asian physique to handle a heavier and more cumbersome/unwieldy rifle, while the bigger Americans use the lighter and nimbler M4 carbine?

 

41fbdf8124b328d959a185dcdd46dfb6.jpg

 

A quick google check reveals that the M4 carbine is shorter, weighs less and has a quicker rate of fire. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAR_21 ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_carbine) Given that the SAR21 is engineered from scratch, why aren't all these factors, particularly usability and practicability, taken into consideration? Also, if the M4 carbine is good enough for the most modern battle-tested army in the world, why is it not good enough for Singapore?

 

It is a given soldiers will have to run about/crawl/prone during combat. Will a wrong choice of rifle disadvantage ourselves during war? Is it time for Ng Eng Hen and his ministry to relook at our choice of primary arm?

Sorry, abit late on the discussion but I'd like to add some of my views on the rifles.

I used M16 during BMT and trade course. The Carbine (CAR15, not M4) during my unit days and SAR21 during my reservist. In my humble opinion:

 

- Is the SAR21 a better weapon? Not really.

- So the M16 is better than the SAR21? Nope, definitely not.

- How about the CAR15 Carbine? It's neither an ideal weapon.

M16

The Good

The M16 is battle-proven old horse. However what we have is the M16S1 which is equivalent to the M16A1, still not the better M16A3 version that is standard in US army. It's proven to be effective in combat and accurate to fire. The best part is it's ambidextrous, can be picked up and firing by lefthanders even without a deflector. The chamber been nearer to the foregrip is less distracting to the firer and doesn't deafen the ears as much.

 

The design of the selectors are ergonomic that the firer can switch from safe/semi/auto and release the mag with a single finger while still holding the trigger grip and in aiming position. Reloading of the weapon is split second as you can release the spent mag, slap in a new mag and "ease-spring" to load the round, ready to fire just like that. No non-US rifle at that time can do that, not even the infamous AK47. But the funny thing is we are not officially taught to take advantage to reload like that, not in BMT or trade courses. I only learn this in sispec/unit. I guess it's due to the old doctrine migrating over from the old SAR80 rifle.

 

The bad

Maintain is still okay but small parts tend to get lost. flimsy aluminium Mags are easily damaged from trauma and can cause feeding issues and dropping loose. Some even resort to putting rubberbands to secure them. As @Watwheels mentioned, all the propellent residue got blowback to the upper receiver making it a nightmare to clean and IA prone.

 

The iron sight is another pain in the arse. Ask ourselves how many times we train and go prone and just bang bang away without looking at the sights? It's a hassle to aim especially with all the helmet and FBO at the back. The adjusting of the sight during range is also a hassle. Not to mention the cleaning and of the chamber which is obstructed by the upper receiver group, alot of hidden soot at hard to reach places. and also do you know by SAF battalion estab our M16 are supposed to be equipped with Laser pointer attachments? The old one added additional weight to the M16 to bring it to a sub 3kg rifle.

 

CAR15 carbine

The Good

Beside what I mentioned for the M16, the weight of the Carbine is godsend. The retractable buttstock is good if your are bashing thick vegetation or inside an confined vehicle.

 

The bad

Most CAR15 do not have a forward assist which will make remediation of IA a tad difficult than the M16. Not a real problem as more carbine users dun shoot much. The retractable buttstock is a double edge sword as it's shaky and cannot adsorb the recoil as good as the wooden stock of the M16, not to mention the shorten barrel of the CAR15. All this make the CAR15 an extremely inaccurate weapon.

 

During my unit range, we were forced to use carbine as it's our primary weapon and our ATF score was bad, the 300m is a disaster as we have to offset the aiming to hit the target, something like using a Nerf toy gun. Most US Special Forces soldiers in Iraq or Afghan modified their M4s to make it more effective, from a soup upped buttstock to a crispier trigger and aftermarket bolt carrier amounting to 10k+ more just to improve the range. Not sustainable if the army adopt such mass modifications.

 

SAR 21

The Good

The SAR21 is made with one thing in mind, to be as idiot proof as possible for a conscript Army and then be as lethal. That is why the decision of using the bullpup configuration (chamber and magazine in butt) instead of conventional design like the M16. This reduces the length of the SAR16 to be comparable to the Carbine while not sacrificing the range of the weapon. Now all Soldier get to enjoy the benefits or a short length Carbine while having the same range as an M16. The slow rate of fire (650rpm versus 800rpm of the M16) is actually by design for a conscript Army.

By slowing down the rate of fire, the weapon adsorbs the recoil more effectively and improve accuracy even in auto mode. This makes the SAR21 one of the most accurate weapons in Auto mode. In overseas variant at SAR21 can firing healthy at 800rpm but with a heavier barrel. The all plastic design makes it tough and easy to maintain without all paint chips or metal fatigue to worry about. The hard plastic magazines are alot more sturdy. The scope is pre zeroed so anyone can pick it up to fire. If a bobo shoot use it he will only see a blank in the scope, he will be force to adjust his eyes till the vision appears to get a true aim.

 

The bad

The bullpup by design is basically an explosion in your face. The sound is deafening and you definitely need earplugs for this. The design of the selectors are far from ergonomic and all over the place. you have the safe switch near the trigger and the semi/auto selector at the butt stock and the weird magazine release buttons at the bottom. News NSF and 3rd Gen soldiers are sadly accustomed to these flaws that they will never get a chance to appreciate the ergonomics of the M16 which is far more superior. So during a fight you need to switch semi/auto but moving both your hands.

 

Another major down is the lack of a bolt release catch. While the bolt leaves open after the last round is spent, once you swap the mag with a new one, there is no catch to "ease spring" and chamber the round in. you have to work on the flimsy charging handle again to close the bolt and all the aiming would be off. This is to me one of the biggest witness on the SAR21. initially I thought it is a design limitation but realise that the AUG7 and TAR21 had a catch for quick reload. I had two theories. (1)The old SAR 80 doctrine made this a forgotten feature since it's not official taught in BMT (2)Cut cost as the extra part would overshot the budget.

 

The 3rd, it is NOT for left handers. It may sound trivial (like what the then minister said) but try using your left hand to write or even aim a gun, you will feel unnatural and can never perform as effectively as a right hander.

 

 

 

As you can see, although the SAR21 outperforms the M16 in some ways, the SAR21 far from perfect and some weakness and flaws are hard to ignore.

Luckily ST kinetic did really hear the feedbacks and got their act together....hence the BR18 is born.

 

It's fixed all the complains I had. one it's the safe/semi/auto selector and mag release catch is on both sides, right/left hander friendly, lighter and has a bolt catch release for fast loading.

But not sure if SAF will adopt as the SAR21 will not EOL for another 10 years. Maybe its a tech demo for better things to come.

 

If SAF adopt the BR18, I'm sure it will not have customized p-rails. Probably a sleek scope or Iotech like the SAR21.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Pocus

[Pocus]

A good read of the BR18. Hope SAF adopts this....

https://www.gunsweek.com/en/rifles/articles/st-kinetics-br18-ultimate-bull-pup-assault-rifle

Edited June 11, 2019 by Pocus

[Playtime]

If you meant the SAR-80, in my time it was issued to support units and was heavier than M-16 rifles although it was supposedly more accurate. Construction-wise it was rather basic with a sheet metal upper receiver assembly, rather than the M-16's cast metal one.

 

Read before that it showed up in those African civil wars... not sure sold or third party transfers.

[Zxcvb]

“”Reloading of the weapon M16 is split second as you can release the spent mag, slap in a new mag and "ease-spring" to load the round, ready to fire just like that. No non-US rifle at that time can do that, not even the infamous AK47. But the funny thing is we are not officially taught to take advantage to reload like that, not in BMT or trade courses.””

 

I did this act during live firing. Kenna F left right by my trainer and CSM. And mind you I’ve got the best score in marksmanship in the company. Already handled it during my NCC days.

[Lala81]

ya...its due to the handguards and its rather bulky! Some shooters says the feeling of front heavy makes the sar21 more stable during firing as you really have to grip the guards with a stronger hold. I only tried aiming on a standing position with my son's sar21.......never tried the actual life firing and i found the m16 is much more lighter.

 

If i really have to choose a weapon to go to war and shoot people, i will take the SAR21 over the m16.

There's definitely less recoil.

 

As an average soldier in terms of marksmanship, i think it's easier to shoot.

Actually the SAR21 for left handers, it depends on whether u have a left master eye or right master eye.

My friend is a leftie and i always shoot with him during ICT. At least that's his theory haha 

 

 

 

The 3rd, it is NOT for left handers. It may sound trivial (like what the then minister said) but try using your left hand to write or even aim a gun, you will feel unnatural and can never perform as effectively as a right hander.

 

 

 

 

 

[Pocus]

ââReloading of the weapon M16 is split second as you can release the spent mag, slap in a new mag and "ease-spring" to load the round, ready to fire just like that. No non-US rifle at that time can do that, not even the infamous AK47. But the funny thing is we are not officially taught to take advantage to reload like that, not in BMT or trade courses.ââ

 

I did this act during live firing. Kenna F left right by my trainer and CSM. And mind you Iâve got the best score in marksmanship in the company. Already handled it during my NCC days.

That's why I say it's not officially taught in schools and BMT. My bet is some cock must have misfired while doing this or the doctrine is from SAR80. Even when we do SAR21 conversion some of the drills are borrowed from M16.

 

In unit it's very different, my platoon was taught to do that so no issues so far... but Afte SAR21 conversion we cant do it anymore.

If i really have to choose a weapon to go to war and shoot people, i will take the SAR21 over the m16.

There's definitely less recoil.

 

As an average soldier in terms of marksmanship, i think it's easier to shoot.

 

Actually the SAR21 for left handers, it depends on whether u have a left master eye or right master eye.

My friend is a leftie and i always shoot with him during ICT. At least that's his theory haha

Lol I agree... should be right master eye only. I'm left master eye so I suffered...

[Evillusion]

If i really have to choose a weapon to go to war and shoot people, i will take the SAR21 over the m16.

There's definitely less recoil.

 

As an average soldier in terms of marksmanship, i think it's easier to shoot.

 

Actually the SAR21 for left handers, it depends on whether u have a left master eye or right master eye.

My friend is a leftie and i always shoot with him during ICT. At least that's his theory haha

hahaha......your friend wore the eye-patch or just shoot south-paw style....if no deflector i am sure he will have a lot of pimple....

[Tohto]

Had never shoot the SAR21 before, last ICT still using M16.

[Lethalstrike]

A good read of the BR18. Hope SAF adopts this....

https://www.gunsweek.com/en/rifles/articles/st-kinetics-br18-ultimate-bull-pup-assault-rifle

BR18 looks well thought out. The SAR 21 should have turned out this way right from the start.

[Zxcvb]

I also did this, and very quickly remedy my own IA during live firing before the trainer could say anything, he just stunt then "ok ok, continue". He didn't expect a LJP to be more alert than him. [laugh]

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuNzcRU1r7c

 

Do they teach this method to reload the magazine when the previous mag become empty and the bolt carrier will be positioned to the rear?? Then all you need is to slap a loaded magazine in and ease spring to put the round into the chamber.

[Playtime]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuNzcRU1r7c

 

Do they teach this method to reload the magazine when the previous mag become empty and the bolt carrier will be positioned to the rear?? Then all you need is to slap a loaded magazine in and ease spring to put the round into the chamber.

Always tot that's the common sense tactical way.

 

Sometimes we are tot to be so route learning we mix theory with practical.