Why Electric Cars Won't Save Us

[Voodooman]

On 11/21/2023 at 4:19 PM, bsswan said:

Let's see. According to the news last night Sarawak is to implement a H2 public transport network at the end of next year and into 2025. Of course, all hardware also from China whilst 70% of their state electricity is hydro-powered so it should also be mostly green.

Renault will, later today, launch a new Master with a H2 option together with ICE and full EV with larger batteries.

Thanks for sharing but I think you have missed my point. Elon Musk called hydrogen “the most dumb thing I could possibly imagine for energy storage”.  Not saying hydrogen has no application (it is used in expensive rockets) but the maths for green hydrogen to replace ICE instead of via EV route is just not there. This article explained it quite well in terms of the energy loss differential, 20% vs a whopping 62%. We have better use for the green electricity produced in Sarawak than for it to be used to produce hydrogen and to immediately lose 25% of it from the electrolysis process.

https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=1bf1cbf0-ac2f-4b39-a3de-2df77a9a515e

The future of passenger transport and the energy loss conundrum

Because of this, the current consensus is that the future of passenger and short-range vehicles (such as inner-city delivery vehicles) lies in battery electric powertrains. While hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles are also considered to have applications in this area, innovation is largely focused on applying hydrogen fuel cells for larger scale, longer distance transport, as revealed by a review of the current patent activity in this field.

If one of your main goals is to save the planet, battery electric vehicles are considerably more energy efficient than hydrogen fuel cell vehicles when you consider the series of steps between power generation and propulsion. With a battery electric vehicle, once the electricity is generated (hopefully from a renewable source) the process of supplying this to your vehicle charging location means that around 5% of it is lost. The process of charging and discharging the battery loses another 10%. Finally, the motor wastes another 5% when the vehicle is being driven. That makes for a total loss of 20%.

With a hydrogen fuel cell, you must first convert the electricity to hydrogen via electrolysis, which is only 75% efficient. The gas then must be compressed, chilled and transported, losing another 10%. The fuel cell process of converting hydrogen back to electricity is only 60% efficient, after which you have the same 5% loss from driving the vehicle motor as for a battery electric vehicle. The grand total is a 62% loss — more than three times as much.

To put it another way, for every kW of electricity supply, you get 800W of energy for a battery electric vehicle but only 380W for a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle — less than half as much. 

[bsswan]

On 11/21/2023 at 5:18 PM, Voodooman said:

Because of this, the current consensus is that the future of passenger and short-range vehicles (such as inner-city delivery vehicles) lies in battery electric powertrains. While hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles are also considered to have applications in this area, innovation is largely focused on applying hydrogen fuel cells for larger scale, longer distance transport, as revealed by a review of the current patent activity in this field.

Hence....

Sarawak public transport, Renault Master, JCB conversions from diesel, trains in EU.

You kinda contradicted yourself there about a better use for Sarawak energy usage as you went on to say H2 is fine for longer distance transport.

I agree with you 100%, EV for short range city driving. Clear. No need for a Tycan then, for example, since it's also useless as a taxi.

Hydrogen tech will improve, whether with FuelCell-EV or a direct fuel as JCB has proven to work. Same is true for SF but the thread title I think remains true, Electric Cars won't save the planet.

Concentrate first, please, on solutions with more bang-for-buck.

Let EJ, then, use/waste his billions where he wants - aren't X and CyberTruck doing really well 😂

[inlinesix]

On 11/21/2023 at 5:42 PM, bsswan said:

Hence....

Sarawak public transport, Renault Master, JCB conversions from diesel, trains in EU.

You kinda contradicted yourself there about a better use for Sarawak energy usage as you went on to say H2 is fine for longer distance transport.

I agree with you 100%, EV for short range city driving. Clear. No need for a Tycan then, for example, since it's also useless as a taxi.

Hydrogen tech will improve, whether with FuelCell-EV or a direct fuel as JCB has proven to work. Same is true for SF but the thread title I think remains true, Electric Cars won't save the planet.

Concentrate first, please, on solutions with more bang-for-buck.

Let EJ, then, use/waste his billions where he wants - aren't X and CyberTruck doing really well 😂

Hydrogen has more loss as compared to EV.

On the other hand, needs more battery to run a longer distance.  More battery = More weight.

Hydrogen solves the problem for distance that is more than 1k km.

That's what he meant.

[Voodooman]

On 11/21/2023 at 5:42 PM, bsswan said:

Hence....

Sarawak public transport, Renault Master, JCB conversions from diesel, trains in EU.

You kinda contradicted yourself there about a better use for Sarawak energy usage as you went on to say H2 is fine for longer distance transport.

I agree with you 100%, EV for short range city driving. Clear. No need for a Tycan then, for example, since it's also useless as a taxi.

Hydrogen tech will improve, whether with FuelCell-EV or a direct fuel as JCB has proven to work. Same is true for SF but the thread title I think remains true, Electric Cars won't save the planet.

Concentrate first, please, on solutions with more bang-for-buck.

Let EJ, then, use/waste his billions where he wants - aren't X and CyberTruck doing really well 😂

Malaysia is still operating coal fired power plants. 

Don't think I am going to convince you but thanks for the discussion.

[bsswan]

On 11/21/2023 at 6:13 PM, Voodooman said:

Malaysia is still operating coal fired power plants. 

Don't think I am going to convince you but thanks for the discussion.

Stated, Sarawak works from 70% hydro-power. Being very specific, not general.

[Voodooman]

On 11/21/2023 at 6:23 PM, bsswan said:

Stated, Sarawak works from 70% hydro-power. Being very specific, not general.

I may not be clear. 

In the real world, there is usually a trade off for most decisions (if we can have our cake and eat it, we won't be having this discussion).  I am just saying hydro energy produced in Sarawak could first be used to replace electricity currently powered by coal plants.  Instead it is used to synthesize H2 which immediately results in a loss ratio of 25%. 

On long distance, IL6 is right although the maths still doesn't work at this moment based on my reading.  Another consideration is in big countries, EV infrastructure is more challenging to build. For SG, EV is ideal. In 10-15 years, we should see a significant improvement in air quality alone. Me think.

 

[bsswan]

It could be, using Sarawak's intended hyrdo-generated electricity to mitigate pollution from coal powered plants MAY not provide as much environmental benefit when compared to impacts from manufacturing/charging/exploding/replacing/recycling(not) of batteries, mining in the big picture, and modifying their grid to cope with higher demand.

If taken for environmental reasons, it's a reasonable big-picture study but in the end, we have to doubt that was the main reason for choosing H2 in their case. They just did, which is fine.

[Throttle2]

https://www.sgcarmart.com/articles/features/this-is-why-you-dont-want-to-wreck-your-high-tech-evs-34521?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=sgcmNews&utm_content=trendingarticles
 

another real reason why EVs are not workable in a highcost yet backward place like SG.

 

 

 

 

[Fcw75]

BMW is betting on hydrogen.

https://myelectricsparks.com/bmw-hydrogen-engines/?fbclid=IwAR1TAwipHt6Anj6r6LSblAz4Se4qs4WEDcx0Y0_rtLl_nrk-lv3pmwPEFwU_aem_ASs-7jISb-cKS22YoOeh7A5q-7fgg1f_W_tId0dkIOj1qFF8p9jWwS3HkVZTyVcj2aM#ls15w4tgz2ksfe1my3c

[Throttle2]

My take is EVs will eventually fail in SG.  In many other places around the world, EVs would make excellent sense, but in SG, fail.. 😛😛😁😎

[inlinesix]

On 1/31/2024 at 10:22 AM, Fcw75 said:

BMW is betting on hydrogen.

https://myelectricsparks.com/bmw-hydrogen-engines/?fbclid=IwAR1TAwipHt6Anj6r6LSblAz4Se4qs4WEDcx0Y0_rtLl_nrk-lv3pmwPEFwU_aem_ASs-7jISb-cKS22YoOeh7A5q-7fgg1f_W_tId0dkIOj1qFF8p9jWwS3HkVZTyVcj2aM#ls15w4tgz2ksfe1my3c

BMW has been working on Hydrogen since Hydrogen 7 (F01).

This is nothing new.

[bsswan]

On 1/31/2024 at 10:18 AM, Throttle2 said:

https://www.sgcarmart.com/articles/features/this-is-why-you-dont-want-to-wreck-your-high-tech-evs-34521?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=sgcmNews&utm_content=trendingarticles
 

another real reason why EVs are not workable in a highcost yet backward place like SG.

Why insurance companies in EU/UK/US are pulling policies for EV, repair and replacement costs are too high.

[ccc888]

On 1/31/2024 at 10:35 AM, Throttle2 said:

My take is EVs will eventually fail in SG.  In many other places around the world, EVs would make excellent sense, but in SG, fail.. 😛😛😁😎

I concur.

in many other countries usually each household have 2 cars….so one EV for city short trips and the other for long trips.

Plus mostly stay Landed with personal charger.

Why pay hefty tax here to own an EV and yet sacrifice on the convenience of owning it if dont have personal charger.

Might as well smell armpit or pay for chauffeur (Grab)

[Throttle2]

Maybe it can be successful as a taxi where all the EVs can be managed centrally

[Ct3833]

I cut and paste only, will it happen yet to be seen.

....

The new generation of hydrogen engines has arrived at Honda and GM. Farewell to electric cars.

....

Increased performance and double durability

Besides increasing performance and durability, hydrogen engines will significantly reduce manufacturing costs. Honda stated that the hydrogen fuel cell system they are developing will cost one-third as much as the identical powertrain in the previous Clarity.

........

https://lagradaonline.com/en/hydrogen-engines-new-generation/

 

Edited January 31, 2024 by Ct3833

[ccc888]

On 1/31/2024 at 6:03 PM, Ct3833 said:

I cut and paste only, will it happen yet to be seen.

....

The new generation of hydrogen engines has arrived at Honda and GM. Farewell to electric cars.

....

Increased performance and double durability

Besides increasing performance and durability, hydrogen engines will significantly reduce manufacturing costs. Honda stated that the hydrogen fuel cell system they are developing will cost one-third as much as the identical powertrain in the previous Clarity.

........

https://lagradaonline.com/en/hydrogen-engines-new-generation/

 

I believe the main barrier is the cost of producing pure hydrogen.

https://www.govtech.com/fs/the-high-cost-of-hydrogen-fuel-is-a-drag-on-adoption

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/hydrogen-cars-are-dead-as-projects-are-scrapped-and-refueling-prices-go-through-the-roof-221373.html

 

[inlinesix]

 

[Ct3833]

Again, another cut and paste. What is ahead of the auto revolution is yet to be seen as mentioned .

BMW says bye to EVs. It has solved the problem of hydrogen engines and begins a new era

https://lagradaonline.com/en/bmw-evs-hydrogen-engines/