Middle class blues

[Ingenius]

From your message, it seems to me you have been surrounded by successfully ones. However, for every successful example you quote, i can also give you 10 examples of the less successful or less well to do. But that is not the point here. The fact remains that FT policy has certainly impacted many fellow Sporeans life. I work in an R&D environment, and many times we have hard time finding suitable applicants with right skills and qualifications. For that situation, i welcome FT to fill in those positions and contribute to the success of Spore. However, priorities should be given to local first. I'm glad my organization is taking this approach now. Local first, if can't find a match one, go for FT. That should be the way.

I am sure there are as many less successful ones out there. but my point is, the opportunity is out there as evidently cited, and it is up to individual to realise their potential and maximise their achievements. if one hasnt achieved success, dont blame on others or FTs. what you said about many times cannot find suitable candidate is very true, and that is exactly why we need FTs.

 

Long ago i went for a job interview at a organisation somewhere in yio chu kang, inside the very big building i saw hordes of workers of indian nationality (hundreds of them). during the interview i was asked to rate myself for the skill set required, and i rated as 7 out of 10. i was outright rejected politely, as the interviewer told me, they take in people who are at last 8 to 9 out of 10 proficiency in the skill set. i understood till today, because the org needed the best and right person to get the job done, not just a singaporean. today, few of my superiors are PRs, and earning much more than me. Why dont i question why our gahment doesnt protect its ccitizen and give the best job for its people ? i hold no grudges because i understand it is only because they are better than me, and it is for the good of the organisation. if it is not for this meritocracy system, we woudnt even be near where we are today. The gahment did right to attract investments to sgp, build the infrastrcuutre and a ecological system, educate the young. this is good enough to give them the opportunity to succeeed. for one, i dont have the entitlement mentality that our spoilt youth are so embeded with.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Ingenius

[Ingenius]

So it seems like sharing of salary earnings is like asking for sugar from your relatives.

 

I just told my mom i earned $20K monthly salary and you know what her words to me were - 'Its none of my business".

 

But do you really think she actually believed that her 27 year old son earns that much with only 3 years experience in the financial industry?

you cannot even read properly, my friend who earns 20k a month working in citibank as IT professional is not the relative who worked for a few years. pls dont post rubbish and quote wrongly.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Ingenius

[Tonyhawk]

While there are young graduates who just started working are are struggling to buy their first house, the fact is that they have just started and have a long way to go. look at the new coe scheme whereby people have to place 60% downpayment, and coe prices remains high and in demand. what does this show ? there are a sizeable rich people around. the latest condo in jurong east, was all taken up on launch. surely the fresh graduates cannot expect the same afffordability right ?

 

the crux is, citing young graduates who cannot afford such goodies, is missing the point that they are fresh graduates, and shouldn not expect to be entitled thee same afffordability as those who has worked their years already. this shows the mentality of young people who blame the gahmeent for their plight, without realising that they have enjoyed their education, and has a long way to go to earn their own car and house.

 

I worry for the bottom 20-30%. I think the earlier posts on the wage divide is quite telling. the bottom 10 decile now makes about 30% more than 12 years ago. the top 10 decile, 100%. I think you can easily make a case about HDB prices doubling in price, since 2000. No surprises how and why.

 

Car/COE prices are not my concern, and shouldnt have been the leaders' too. In fact, they had MUCH bigger fish to fry than to tamper COE prices imo. We dont often see the government implementing changes for mere political mileage. The number of new cars on the road remains the same, traffic remains the same. The entire exercise was to make inflation figures look good. Perhaps, it enabled us to sell the countries' image better to expats, to relocate to our paradise. I dont know. What I do know is, in preventing people from taking loans, you close off access to money for those who need it. That, to me, is not a good thing for capitalism. a car is a tool for many to generate income.

 

there is no denying that there is a sense of entitlement amongst our youths. in fact, you could go all the way up the ranks. All of us think we deserve a certain renumeration, a certain bonus. which one of us would put up our hand and say, no, i deserve to be paid less. i earned it because i worked so hard, and made $X million for the company or have X years experience. Is that not a sense of entitlement?

 

What is important here is that we all have dreams and aspirations, it is a powerful driving force. We cannot afford to take those dreams and aspirations away from our youths. A reasonably priced HDB flat is not a huge ask, but it looks increasingly out of reach.

 

 

 

[Viceroymenthol]

But do you really think she actually believed that her 27 year old son earns that much with only 3 years experience in the financial industry?

 

It is incredible that someone who has chosen a career in our financial industry can be pro-opposition and anti-govt. I cannot believe it. Our govt, through their vision and steering of the direction of our economy, is the main reason why our financial industry is tops in SE Asia and second only to HK in the whole of Asia.

 

You can say it is the sweat and blood of the bankers and finance professionals that were the foundation that built this, but without the Govt pre-planning this decades ago, implementing their policies in banking, trade, corporate law, governance, training and education, etc, we wouldn't even have so many banking and finance professionals in the first place.

 

If it were so simple as "people power", then there would have been banking and financial centres springing up in Manila, KL, Jakarta, etc.. they have bigger population in the first place who could have been trained as banking and finance professionals if their govts had wanted to.

 

Lastly, it isn't wise to contribute to the smashing of your own ricebowl, even if you choose to bite the hand that fed.

[13177]

From your message, it seems to me you have been surrounded by successfully ones. However, for every successful example you quote, i can also give you 10 examples of the less successful or less well to do. But that is not the point here. The fact remains that FT policy has certainly impacted many fellow Sporeans life. I work in an R&D environment, and many times we have hard time finding suitable applicants with right skills and qualifications. For that situation, i welcome FT to fill in those positions and contribute to the success of Spore. However, priorities should be given to local first. I'm glad my organization is taking this approach now. Local first, if can't find a match one, go for FT. That should be the way.

Now the theory is, whoever able to grab or want the job at what the company can pay to him/her gets the job, regardless whether the person is local or foreigners. But some companies seems to "prefer" foreigners than locals, dont know whether the hiring person is also a foreigner or the company alway give excuses that no locals want to do?!

[Chrispie]

i recently began to feel that the so called 'middle class' standard is rising quite quickly... i guess in no time im low class already.

[Lala81]

lol i should have went into financial sector.

[Little_prince]

lol i should have went into financial sector.

nabei. doctor also come and suan siao

[Hydrocarbon]

i understood till today, because the org needed the best and right person to get the job done, not just a singaporean. today, few of my superiors are PRs, and earning much more than me. Why dont i question why our gahment doesnt protect its ccitizen and give the best job for its people ? i hold no grudges because i understand it is only because they are better than me, and it is for the good of the organisation. if it is not for this meritocracy system, we woudnt even be near where we are today.

 

for one, i dont have the entitlement mentality that our spoilt youth are so embeded with.

 

Like your mentality. It's true meritocracy, getting the best people for the good of the organisation instead of protectionism.

 

However, just want to dispute the entitlement mentality of the youth that quite a lot of people feel we have. I'm in my early / mid 20s, but I do want to say that not all of us have an entitlement mentality. This impression probably comes from the fact that a lot of youths have access to social media, making it easier to whine and voice out. But it's usually the vocal minority of whiners that will skew the impression of an entire generation.

 

I have peers who work for what they have, and not want handouts from their parents or governments, and they don't whine about most things. Certainly, we do gripe about the cost of a house, but not of cars, as a car is not a necessity. Not having a roof over our heads is a problem, but having to squeeze on a train or bus isn't going to kill us. We do wish and hope for certain things, but we know we are not entitled to it just by virtue of being born.

 

there is no denying that there is a sense of entitlement amongst our youths. in fact, you could go all the way up the ranks. All of us think we deserve a certain renumeration, a certain bonus. which one of us would put up our hand and say, no, i deserve to be paid less. i earned it because i worked so hard, and made $X million for the company or have X years experience. Is that not a sense of entitlement?

 

I disagree with the bolded part. If a person works hard (or smart) and is an asset to the company, he is able to command a larger paycheck that someone who can't or doesn't contribute as much. I don't think of it as an entitlement mentality. An entitlement mentality would be expecting reward without work, because of a person being who he is, instead of what he contributes. It would be like the son of a rich man expecting an inheritance, instead of the son of a rich man working hard to build his own empire, instead of inheriting one from his parents.

[Lala81]

nabei. doctor also come and suan siao

 

haha. everyone come in here complain here complain there mah.

Zheng hu boh ho.

Every FT is pai lang. Only SG is ho lang.

 

People are funny!

[Ingenius]

Like your mentality. It's true meritocracy, getting the best people for the good of the organisation instead of protectionism.

 

However, just want to dispute the entitlement mentality of the youth that quite a lot of people feel we have. I'm in my early / mid 20s, but I do want to say that not all of us have an entitlement mentality. This impression probably comes from the fact that a lot of youths have access to social media, making it easier to whine and voice out. But it's usually the vocal minority of whiners that will skew the impression of an entire generation.

 

I have peers who work for what they have, and not want handouts from their parents or governments, and they don't whine about most things. Certainly, we do gripe about the cost of a house, but not of cars, as a car is not a necessity. Not having a roof over our heads is a problem, but having to squeeze on a train or bus isn't going to kill us. We do wish and hope for certain things, but we know we are not entitled to it just by virtue of being born.

 

 

 

I disagree with the bolded part. If a person works hard (or smart) and is an asset to the company, he is able to command a larger paycheck that someone who can't or doesn't contribute as much. I don't think of it as an entitlement mentality. An entitlement mentality would be expecting reward without work, because of a person being who he is, instead of what he contributes. It would be like the son of a rich man expecting an inheritance, instead of the son of a rich man working hard to build his own empire, instead of inheriting one from his parents.

i dont mean most youths are like that, but i was referring to someone's post blaming the FTs for suppressing his and his colleagues' wages, citing that his colleagues who are mostly fresh graduates struggling to afford their house. i am sure you are a practical and objective man judging from your level-headedness.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Ingenius

[Little_prince]

haha. everyone come in here complain here complain there mah.

Zheng hu boh ho.

Every FT is pai lang. Only SG is ho lang.

 

People are funny!

 

and when elections come. they all still vote pap.

[Enye]

wah middle class so many issues and complaints

 

lucky i belong to the low class

 

no need condo or car

 

and still can get aid/subsidies from govt

 

vote whoever that dishes out the most goodies during elections

 

life is good

 

[Hydrocarbon]

i dont mean most youths are like that, but i was referring to someone's post blaming the FTs for suppressing his and his colleagues' wages, citing that his colleagues who are mostly fresh graduates struggling to afford their house. i am sure you are a practical and objective man judging from your level-headedness.

 

I apologise, I mis-read your previous comment. No offense, I hope.

 

FTs might actually be suppressing wages, maybe not directly, but they provide a cheaper alternative for a similar standard of work. Then again, Walmart became one of the biggest retailers in the world by charging less for their goods, not more. I think part of the issue is, as you and some other MCF-ers have mentioned, that some of the youth have entitlement mentality, wanting a higher salary for being a Singaporean, or complaining about FTs being able to afford the same service at a lower cost. But the other part of the issue is also that not all employes look at value, but at cost.

 

If person A costs $10/hour and can do 1 unit of work per hour, and person B costs $25/hour and can do 3 units of work per hour, who is more valuable to the organisation? Obviously, when it is so clear cut, it's easy to hire person B over person A. But when both are submitting their resume (both with similar levels of education and experience), and the employer sees that the asking salary of person A is lower, without thinking of the future, and whether person A (who might be a foreigner) can integrate with the organisation structure already in place as well as communicate with the rest.

 

I've been to meetings where the company has FTs who speak English, but cannot understand each other, and as an outside, I would have to translate from one form of broken English to another form of broken English. If they could both just understand each other, their productivity would be higher.

 

Sorry, talk so much until I lost my point. What I'm saying is, some employers are truly short sighted, caring more about upfront cost than overall value.

[Ingenius]

What offence ? Yours is an objective discussion and sharing, instead of starting with "the pap internet brigade .." . anyway i do see where you are coming from and the valid points you have made.

 

anyway, i believe that employees\organisations that seek out cheap workers instead of the best man, only serves to meet the short term bottom line goals, but in the long term, will lose out in terms of comptetiveness and value.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Ingenius

[Joseph22]

Whoo all the PAP internet brigade chut liaoz.

Dont see how different they are from you who just come here to bash PAP.

in fact, base on the % of contribution of their post to politics. you sure look more like creating the account here to bash PAP.

[Joseph22]

I apologise, I mis-read your previous comment. No offense, I hope.

 

FTs might actually be suppressing wages, maybe not directly, but they provide a cheaper alternative for a similar standard of work. Then again, Walmart became one of the biggest retailers in the world by charging less for their goods, not more. I think part of the issue is, as you and some other MCF-ers have mentioned, that some of the youth have entitlement mentality, wanting a higher salary for being a Singaporean, or complaining about FTs being able to afford the same service at a lower cost. But the other part of the issue is also that not all employes look at value, but at cost.

 

If person A costs $10/hour and can do 1 unit of work per hour, and person B costs $25/hour and can do 3 units of work per hour, who is more valuable to the organisation? Obviously, when it is so clear cut, it's easy to hire person B over person A. But when both are submitting their resume (both with similar levels of education and experience), and the employer sees that the asking salary of person A is lower, without thinking of the future, and whether person A (who might be a foreigner) can integrate with the organisation structure already in place as well as communicate with the rest.

 

I've been to meetings where the company has FTs who speak English, but cannot understand each other, and as an outside, I would have to translate from one form of broken English to another form of broken English. If they could both just understand each other, their productivity would be higher.

 

Sorry, talk so much until I lost my point. What I'm saying is, some employers are truly short sighted, caring more about upfront cost than overall value.

they are suppressing salary indirectly, but in certain industries also supress the cost too. if not outside workshop wont be charging only sub 100 for car servicing liao. it work both ways.

having said that, like many of us mention. its more of the lousy FT that cannot do work that we have to work with that make us feel angry and wonder why. imagine if all the FT that can do work and better than us are in PMT. how many of us will dare to voice out loudly that FW are snatching our rice bowl??

[Ingenius]

Dont see how different they are from you who just come here to bash PAP.

in fact, base on the % of contribution of their post to politics. you sure look more like creating the account here to bash PAP.

thanks joseph22, you just said the obvious.