Middle class blues

[Bobby_tan]

You said the 1.9% unemployment rate is actually much hhiger for singaporeans, do you have any facts to back it up ? FWs and FTs are here only if they re employed, so how can they be part of the unemployment rate ?

 

I know of many singaporeans who are holding high paying jobs from a few million a year to fresh graudates from local Universities earning almost 10k a month after working a few years (my sil and bil as a matter of fact). my nephews and neices worked a few years faer graduate, already drive sport car and bought a condo (no joke). a friend of mine working in IT line in citibank here, earning almost 20k a month years ago, god knows how much he is earning now. and these are singaporeans mind you. if that is not enough, let me just tell you i am in the education industry, and i know of quite a number of my former students who graduated , are holding high positions now and dong very well in their career with good compensation (i know, because we remain as friend). Cars and houses are in high demand and prices has risen considerably, is only because people can afford it, thats the testimony of the higher arning capability. You probably are not one of them and so you think every other singaporeans is suffering like you, no thanks to the FTs.

 

No doubt there are FTs, some are like nurses, which needs to fill the shortfall of medical workers here, which locals shun. your theory is base purely on the logic that businesses will always get the cheapest FT worker to do the same job. however, do you understand that to earn a high salary, you have to be exceptional and not just mediocre or because you are a singaporean ? meritocracy, while it has its ill effects, is the cornerstone of the success factor of singapore, which has no resources exccept the people.

 

the moment you started your reply with 'the pap internet brigade ...", i already think you are not worth replying to. and i will not anymore.

 

Okay 1st point. Yes, you are correct, my fault for saying wrongly at 1st. FTs will charbok the minute they don't have a job for greener pastures. So really, who is the one making up the majority (if not all) of the unemployment rate? And do you have any statistics to back up that the unemployment rate for locals is not higher than the FTs?

 

Second, I'm doing quite ok thank you. Others are suffering. And the people you know all have it easier than alot of people I know. I work in the architectural industry, which is a lot less lucrative than the banking industry, and I can tell you right now that property prices are so artificially inflated that it's becoming a bubble right now, and my colleagues (especially those who are fresh grads) are struggling to pay HDB loans right now, nevermind buying a condo and a car.

 

3rd point. Correct, you have to be damn good at your job. Singaporean or not, you work hard and do your job to the best of your ability. I will be fair and I will say that I'd rather hire a competent foreigner rather than an incompetent local. But that's not the problem right now, is it? Right now, competent locals are being retrenched in favour of cheaper, unproven foreign talent in the name of 'cutting costs'. Let's face it, the bigger the business, the more focus there is on the profit margin. SMEs have to take care of their workers no matter what as they know their biggest resource is their staff. As for MNCs and large companies, they can easily recruit from anywhere. As for the success of Singapore, we never had this foreigner problem until about more than a decade ago. So no, using meritocracy in this context to justify large scale hiring of foreigners doesn't work here.

 

I've made my points. Since you think I'm not worth listening to since I have somehow offended you, I will not bother to counter anymore arguments you make.

[Oblong]

"Singapore's unemployment rate is a low 1.9% , this shows that whether FT or not, locals still have jobs what."

I thought this thread started with the video "Middle Class Blues" by CNA.

 

At around 18:34, it shows the unemployment rate of PMET through the years.

 

Personally, i find the video quite informative. It looks like an attempt by msm to be more upfront, honest and make some sense of the numbers, provide some reasons, expose some sensitive issues, and allow netizens to bombard.

Then IB will try to defuse and even if unsuccessful, they have gathered enough points to prepare for the next 2 years.

 

[Ingenius]

While there are young graduates who just started working are are struggling to buy their first house, the fact is that they have just started and have a long way to go. look at the new coe scheme whereby people have to place 60% downpayment, and coe prices remains high and in demand. what does this show ? there are a sizeable rich people around. the latest condo in jurong east, was all taken up on launch. surely the fresh graduates cannot expect the same afffordability right ?

 

the crux is, citing young graduates who cannot afford such goodies, is missing the point that they are fresh graduates, and shouldn not expect to be entitled thee same afffordability as those who has worked their years already. this shows the mentality of young people who blame the gahmeent for their plight, without realising that they have enjoyed their education, and has a long way to go to earn their own car and house.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Ingenius

[Oblong]

"Correct, you have to be damn good at your job. Singaporean or not"

Totally agree on this point if we put on the hat of a pragmatic, highly efficient, show me the facts, and numbers only, colonial master.

 

Ok, not really colonial , but u get the drift...

Maybe hedge fund manager for a more contemporary take.

 

That was early 2011, not sure now, or the future though.

 

Mmmm, come to think about it, do you really think ah saw was so damn good in her job during those 10 years?

If you use share price and p&l, maybe u can push for one or some,... but let's be realistic and see from big picture and helicopter view, short term, mid term, long term.

[Mustank]

"Singapore's unemployment rate is a low 1.9% , this shows that whether FT or not, locals still have jobs what."

I thought this thread started with the video "Middle Class Blues" by CNA.

 

At around 18:34, it shows the unemployment rate of PMET through the years.

 

Personally, i find the video quite informative. It looks like an attempt by msm to be more upfront, honest and make some sense of the numbers, provide some reasons, expose some sensitive issues, and allow netizens to bombard.

Then IB will try to defuse and even if unsuccessful, they have gathered enough points to prepare for the next 2 years.

 

agreed

i also notice the "disconnect" between offcial media comms and IB comms

[Roh96]

You said the 1.9% unemployment rate is actually much higher for singaporeans, do you have any facts to back it up ? FWs and FTs are here only if they re employed, so how can they be part of the unemployment rate ?

 

I know of many singaporeans who are holding high paying jobs from a few million a year to fresh graudates from local Universities earning almost 10k a month after working a few years (my sil and bil as a matter of fact). my nephews and nieces worked a few years after they graduate, already drive sport car and bought a condo (no joke). a friend of mine working in IT line in citibank here, earning almost 20k a month years ago, god knows how much he is earning now. and these are singaporeans mind you. if that is not enough, let me just tell you i am in the education industry, and i know of quite a number of my former students who graduated , are holding high positions now and dong very well in their career with good compensation (i know, because we remain as friend). And these, are all singaporeans. Cars and houses are in high demand and prices has risen considerably, is only because people can afford it, thats the testimony of the higher earning capability. You probably are not one of them and so you think every other singaporeans is suffering like you, no thanks to the FTs.

 

some f you who surfs the net regularly and participate in car forums might know bruce. those who knows him knows that he is a singaprean, and when young , was alredy a high flying vp in starhub, today, he has his own realty company already.

 

I give one more exmaple, and this is the epitome i know of. my nephew, graduated from nus as the top number one student in his course, he joined a foreign bank here in sgp, his starting salary (his first job) is a whopping $9k per month , plus $30 daily meal allownce. this young man is the brightest i have ever come across and he has started a charity foundation already. believe it or not is up to you.

 

No doubt there are FTs, some are like nurses, which needs to fill the shortfall of medical workers here, which locals shun. your theory is base purely on the logic that businesses will always get the cheapest FT worker to do the same job. however, do you understand that to earn a high salary, you have to be exceptional and not just mediocre or because you are a singaporean ? My good friend, he is a power station engineer worrkking woth projects in middle east here in sgp, a sgprean, earns as good as a lawyer, because few people can do what he does, btw, we ply mahjong together. bottom line, meritocracy, while it has its ill effects, is the cornerstone of the success factor of singapore, which has no resources exccept the people.

 

the moment you started your reply with 'the pap internet brigade ...", i already think your emotions are clouding your rationale.

 

From your message, it seems to me you have been surrounded by successfully ones. However, for every successful example you quote, i can also give you 10 examples of the less successful or less well to do. But that is not the point here. The fact remains that FT policy has certainly impacted many fellow Sporeans life. I work in an R&D environment, and many times we have hard time finding suitable applicants with right skills and qualifications. For that situation, i welcome FT to fill in those positions and contribute to the success of Spore. However, priorities should be given to local first. I'm glad my organization is taking this approach now. Local first, if can't find a match one, go for FT. That should be the way.

 

 

[Nullifi3d]

You said the 1.9% unemployment rate is actually much higher for singaporeans, do you have any facts to back it up ? FWs and FTs are here only if they re employed, so how can they be part of the unemployment rate ?

 

I know of many singaporeans who are holding high paying jobs from a few million a year to fresh graudates from local Universities earning almost 10k a month after working a few years (my sil and bil as a matter of fact). my nephews and nieces worked a few years after they graduate, already drive sport car and bought a condo (no joke). a friend of mine working in IT line in citibank here, earning almost 20k a month years ago, god knows how much he is earning now. and these are singaporeans mind you. if that is not enough, let me just tell you i am in the education industry, and i know of quite a number of my former students who graduated , are holding high positions now and dong very well in their career with good compensation (i know, because we remain as friend). And these, are all singaporeans. Cars and houses are in high demand and prices has risen considerably, is only because people can afford it, thats the testimony of the higher earning capability. You probably are not one of them and so you think every other singaporeans is suffering like you, no thanks to the FTs.

 

some f you who surfs the net regularly and participate in car forums might know bruce. those who knows him knows that he is a singaprean, and when young , was alredy a high flying vp in starhub, today, he has his own realty company already.

 

I give one more exmaple, and this is the epitome i know of. my nephew, graduated from nus as the top number one student in his course, he joined a foreign bank here in sgp, his starting salary (his first job) is a whopping $9k per month , plus $30 daily meal allownce. this young man is the brightest i have ever come across and he has started a charity foundation already. believe it or not is up to you.

 

No doubt there are FTs, some are like nurses, which needs to fill the shortfall of medical workers here, which locals shun. your theory is base purely on the logic that businesses will always get the cheapest FT worker to do the same job. however, do you understand that to earn a high salary, you have to be exceptional and not just mediocre or because you are a singaporean ? My good friend, he is a power station engineer worrkking woth projects in middle east here in sgp, a sgprean, earns as good as a lawyer, because few people can do what he does, btw, we ply mahjong together. bottom line, meritocracy, while it has its ill effects, is the cornerstone of the success factor of singapore, which has no resources exccept the people.

 

the moment you started your reply with 'the pap internet brigade ...", i already think your emotions are clouding your rationale.

 

So it seems like sharing of salary earnings is like asking for sugar from your relatives.

 

I just told my mom i earned $20K monthly salary and you know what her words to me were - 'Its none of my business".

 

But do you really think she actually believed that her 27 year old son earns that much with only 3 years experience in the financial industry?

 

 

[Hydrocarbon]

I cant stand those marketing calls from these people, many times even i told them i am not interested, they will call again and again and again! Seems like they are not updating their contact list. :angry:

 

Just take your annoyance out on them lor. I got the same from a fitness centre too. Maybe coz I'm too chubby liao.. haha.

 

agree. i do know of two very low income family, they rent their house frmo gahment at a token fee (redhil), and the children didnt need to pay school fees. however, this two families dont have a father, and the mothers (whom i kow) every day play mahjong and go genting once a while, and totally heck care their children. their children all run amok until cid go arrest at the house, and another one chalked up few k of phone bills to malaysia (donno for what), and dropped out of school. my pointis, they need to be resposible for their lives instead of just rely on the gahment to provide foc since they are poor.

 

They have to take responsibility for their own lives. Sounds like they don't, and just expect handouts from the government. There's actually poor people who, without working, expect handouts for not working, just to be able to kick back and relax. These type of people are leeches. Not referring to those who are poor but still work hard.

 

[Ingenius]

From your message, it seems to me you have been surrounded by successfully ones. However, for every successful example you quote, i can also give you 10 examples of the less successful or less well to do. But that is not the point here. The fact remains that FT policy has certainly impacted many fellow Sporeans life. I work in an R&D environment, and many times we have hard time finding suitable applicants with right skills and qualifications. For that situation, i welcome FT to fill in those positions and contribute to the success of Spore. However, priorities should be given to local first. I'm glad my organization is taking this approach now. Local first, if can't find a match one, go for FT. That should be the way.

I am sure there are as many less successful ones out there. but my point is, the opportunity is out there as evidently cited, and it is up to individual to realise their potential and maximise their achievements. if one hasnt achieved success, dont blame on others or FTs. what you said about many times cannot find suitable candidate is very true, and that is exactly why we need FTs.

 

Long ago i went for a job interview at a organisation somewhere in yio chu kang, inside the very big building i saw hordes of workers of indian nationality (hundreds of them). during the interview i was asked to rate myself for the skill set required, and i rated as 7 out of 10. i was outright rejected politely, as the interviewer told me, they take in people who are at last 8 to 9 out of 10 proficiency in the skill set. i understood till today, because the org needed the best and right person to get the job done, not just a singaporean. today, few of my superiors are PRs, and earning much more than me. Why dont i question why our gahment doesnt protect its ccitizen and give the best job for its people ? i hold no grudges because i understand it is only because they are better than me, and it is for the good of the organisation. if it is not for this meritocracy system, we woudnt even be near where we are today. The gahment did right to attract investments to sgp, build the infrastrcuutre and a ecological system, educate the young. this is good enough to give them the opportunity to succeeed. for one, i dont have the entitlement mentality that our spoilt youth are so embeded with.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Ingenius

[Ingenius]

So it seems like sharing of salary earnings is like asking for sugar from your relatives.

 

I just told my mom i earned $20K monthly salary and you know what her words to me were - 'Its none of my business".

 

But do you really think she actually believed that her 27 year old son earns that much with only 3 years experience in the financial industry?

you cannot even read properly, my friend who earns 20k a month working in citibank as IT professional is not the relative who worked for a few years. pls dont post rubbish and quote wrongly.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Ingenius

[Tonyhawk]

While there are young graduates who just started working are are struggling to buy their first house, the fact is that they have just started and have a long way to go. look at the new coe scheme whereby people have to place 60% downpayment, and coe prices remains high and in demand. what does this show ? there are a sizeable rich people around. the latest condo in jurong east, was all taken up on launch. surely the fresh graduates cannot expect the same afffordability right ?

 

the crux is, citing young graduates who cannot afford such goodies, is missing the point that they are fresh graduates, and shouldn not expect to be entitled thee same afffordability as those who has worked their years already. this shows the mentality of young people who blame the gahmeent for their plight, without realising that they have enjoyed their education, and has a long way to go to earn their own car and house.

 

I worry for the bottom 20-30%. I think the earlier posts on the wage divide is quite telling. the bottom 10 decile now makes about 30% more than 12 years ago. the top 10 decile, 100%. I think you can easily make a case about HDB prices doubling in price, since 2000. No surprises how and why.

 

Car/COE prices are not my concern, and shouldnt have been the leaders' too. In fact, they had MUCH bigger fish to fry than to tamper COE prices imo. We dont often see the government implementing changes for mere political mileage. The number of new cars on the road remains the same, traffic remains the same. The entire exercise was to make inflation figures look good. Perhaps, it enabled us to sell the countries' image better to expats, to relocate to our paradise. I dont know. What I do know is, in preventing people from taking loans, you close off access to money for those who need it. That, to me, is not a good thing for capitalism. a car is a tool for many to generate income.

 

there is no denying that there is a sense of entitlement amongst our youths. in fact, you could go all the way up the ranks. All of us think we deserve a certain renumeration, a certain bonus. which one of us would put up our hand and say, no, i deserve to be paid less. i earned it because i worked so hard, and made $X million for the company or have X years experience. Is that not a sense of entitlement?

 

What is important here is that we all have dreams and aspirations, it is a powerful driving force. We cannot afford to take those dreams and aspirations away from our youths. A reasonably priced HDB flat is not a huge ask, but it looks increasingly out of reach.

 

 

 

[Viceroymenthol]

But do you really think she actually believed that her 27 year old son earns that much with only 3 years experience in the financial industry?

 

It is incredible that someone who has chosen a career in our financial industry can be pro-opposition and anti-govt. I cannot believe it. Our govt, through their vision and steering of the direction of our economy, is the main reason why our financial industry is tops in SE Asia and second only to HK in the whole of Asia.

 

You can say it is the sweat and blood of the bankers and finance professionals that were the foundation that built this, but without the Govt pre-planning this decades ago, implementing their policies in banking, trade, corporate law, governance, training and education, etc, we wouldn't even have so many banking and finance professionals in the first place.

 

If it were so simple as "people power", then there would have been banking and financial centres springing up in Manila, KL, Jakarta, etc.. they have bigger population in the first place who could have been trained as banking and finance professionals if their govts had wanted to.

 

Lastly, it isn't wise to contribute to the smashing of your own ricebowl, even if you choose to bite the hand that fed.

[13177]

From your message, it seems to me you have been surrounded by successfully ones. However, for every successful example you quote, i can also give you 10 examples of the less successful or less well to do. But that is not the point here. The fact remains that FT policy has certainly impacted many fellow Sporeans life. I work in an R&D environment, and many times we have hard time finding suitable applicants with right skills and qualifications. For that situation, i welcome FT to fill in those positions and contribute to the success of Spore. However, priorities should be given to local first. I'm glad my organization is taking this approach now. Local first, if can't find a match one, go for FT. That should be the way.

Now the theory is, whoever able to grab or want the job at what the company can pay to him/her gets the job, regardless whether the person is local or foreigners. But some companies seems to "prefer" foreigners than locals, dont know whether the hiring person is also a foreigner or the company alway give excuses that no locals want to do?!

[Chrispie]

i recently began to feel that the so called 'middle class' standard is rising quite quickly... i guess in no time im low class already.

[Lala81]

lol i should have went into financial sector.

[Little_prince]

lol i should have went into financial sector.

nabei. doctor also come and suan siao

[Hydrocarbon]

i understood till today, because the org needed the best and right person to get the job done, not just a singaporean. today, few of my superiors are PRs, and earning much more than me. Why dont i question why our gahment doesnt protect its ccitizen and give the best job for its people ? i hold no grudges because i understand it is only because they are better than me, and it is for the good of the organisation. if it is not for this meritocracy system, we woudnt even be near where we are today.

 

for one, i dont have the entitlement mentality that our spoilt youth are so embeded with.

 

Like your mentality. It's true meritocracy, getting the best people for the good of the organisation instead of protectionism.

 

However, just want to dispute the entitlement mentality of the youth that quite a lot of people feel we have. I'm in my early / mid 20s, but I do want to say that not all of us have an entitlement mentality. This impression probably comes from the fact that a lot of youths have access to social media, making it easier to whine and voice out. But it's usually the vocal minority of whiners that will skew the impression of an entire generation.

 

I have peers who work for what they have, and not want handouts from their parents or governments, and they don't whine about most things. Certainly, we do gripe about the cost of a house, but not of cars, as a car is not a necessity. Not having a roof over our heads is a problem, but having to squeeze on a train or bus isn't going to kill us. We do wish and hope for certain things, but we know we are not entitled to it just by virtue of being born.

 

there is no denying that there is a sense of entitlement amongst our youths. in fact, you could go all the way up the ranks. All of us think we deserve a certain renumeration, a certain bonus. which one of us would put up our hand and say, no, i deserve to be paid less. i earned it because i worked so hard, and made $X million for the company or have X years experience. Is that not a sense of entitlement?

 

I disagree with the bolded part. If a person works hard (or smart) and is an asset to the company, he is able to command a larger paycheck that someone who can't or doesn't contribute as much. I don't think of it as an entitlement mentality. An entitlement mentality would be expecting reward without work, because of a person being who he is, instead of what he contributes. It would be like the son of a rich man expecting an inheritance, instead of the son of a rich man working hard to build his own empire, instead of inheriting one from his parents.

[Lala81]

nabei. doctor also come and suan siao

 

haha. everyone come in here complain here complain there mah.

Zheng hu boh ho.

Every FT is pai lang. Only SG is ho lang.

 

People are funny!