Middle class blues

[Ingenius]

Like your mentality. It's true meritocracy, getting the best people for the good of the organisation instead of protectionism.

 

However, just want to dispute the entitlement mentality of the youth that quite a lot of people feel we have. I'm in my early / mid 20s, but I do want to say that not all of us have an entitlement mentality. This impression probably comes from the fact that a lot of youths have access to social media, making it easier to whine and voice out. But it's usually the vocal minority of whiners that will skew the impression of an entire generation.

 

I have peers who work for what they have, and not want handouts from their parents or governments, and they don't whine about most things. Certainly, we do gripe about the cost of a house, but not of cars, as a car is not a necessity. Not having a roof over our heads is a problem, but having to squeeze on a train or bus isn't going to kill us. We do wish and hope for certain things, but we know we are not entitled to it just by virtue of being born.

 

 

 

I disagree with the bolded part. If a person works hard (or smart) and is an asset to the company, he is able to command a larger paycheck that someone who can't or doesn't contribute as much. I don't think of it as an entitlement mentality. An entitlement mentality would be expecting reward without work, because of a person being who he is, instead of what he contributes. It would be like the son of a rich man expecting an inheritance, instead of the son of a rich man working hard to build his own empire, instead of inheriting one from his parents.

i dont mean most youths are like that, but i was referring to someone's post blaming the FTs for suppressing his and his colleagues' wages, citing that his colleagues who are mostly fresh graduates struggling to afford their house. i am sure you are a practical and objective man judging from your level-headedness.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Ingenius

[Little_prince]

haha. everyone come in here complain here complain there mah.

Zheng hu boh ho.

Every FT is pai lang. Only SG is ho lang.

 

People are funny!

 

and when elections come. they all still vote pap.

[Enye]

wah middle class so many issues and complaints

 

lucky i belong to the low class

 

no need condo or car

 

and still can get aid/subsidies from govt

 

vote whoever that dishes out the most goodies during elections

 

life is good

 

[Hydrocarbon]

i dont mean most youths are like that, but i was referring to someone's post blaming the FTs for suppressing his and his colleagues' wages, citing that his colleagues who are mostly fresh graduates struggling to afford their house. i am sure you are a practical and objective man judging from your level-headedness.

 

I apologise, I mis-read your previous comment. No offense, I hope.

 

FTs might actually be suppressing wages, maybe not directly, but they provide a cheaper alternative for a similar standard of work. Then again, Walmart became one of the biggest retailers in the world by charging less for their goods, not more. I think part of the issue is, as you and some other MCF-ers have mentioned, that some of the youth have entitlement mentality, wanting a higher salary for being a Singaporean, or complaining about FTs being able to afford the same service at a lower cost. But the other part of the issue is also that not all employes look at value, but at cost.

 

If person A costs $10/hour and can do 1 unit of work per hour, and person B costs $25/hour and can do 3 units of work per hour, who is more valuable to the organisation? Obviously, when it is so clear cut, it's easy to hire person B over person A. But when both are submitting their resume (both with similar levels of education and experience), and the employer sees that the asking salary of person A is lower, without thinking of the future, and whether person A (who might be a foreigner) can integrate with the organisation structure already in place as well as communicate with the rest.

 

I've been to meetings where the company has FTs who speak English, but cannot understand each other, and as an outside, I would have to translate from one form of broken English to another form of broken English. If they could both just understand each other, their productivity would be higher.

 

Sorry, talk so much until I lost my point. What I'm saying is, some employers are truly short sighted, caring more about upfront cost than overall value.

[Ingenius]

What offence ? Yours is an objective discussion and sharing, instead of starting with "the pap internet brigade .." . anyway i do see where you are coming from and the valid points you have made.

 

anyway, i believe that employees\organisations that seek out cheap workers instead of the best man, only serves to meet the short term bottom line goals, but in the long term, will lose out in terms of comptetiveness and value.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Ingenius

[Joseph22]

Whoo all the PAP internet brigade chut liaoz.

Dont see how different they are from you who just come here to bash PAP.

in fact, base on the % of contribution of their post to politics. you sure look more like creating the account here to bash PAP.

[Joseph22]

I apologise, I mis-read your previous comment. No offense, I hope.

 

FTs might actually be suppressing wages, maybe not directly, but they provide a cheaper alternative for a similar standard of work. Then again, Walmart became one of the biggest retailers in the world by charging less for their goods, not more. I think part of the issue is, as you and some other MCF-ers have mentioned, that some of the youth have entitlement mentality, wanting a higher salary for being a Singaporean, or complaining about FTs being able to afford the same service at a lower cost. But the other part of the issue is also that not all employes look at value, but at cost.

 

If person A costs $10/hour and can do 1 unit of work per hour, and person B costs $25/hour and can do 3 units of work per hour, who is more valuable to the organisation? Obviously, when it is so clear cut, it's easy to hire person B over person A. But when both are submitting their resume (both with similar levels of education and experience), and the employer sees that the asking salary of person A is lower, without thinking of the future, and whether person A (who might be a foreigner) can integrate with the organisation structure already in place as well as communicate with the rest.

 

I've been to meetings where the company has FTs who speak English, but cannot understand each other, and as an outside, I would have to translate from one form of broken English to another form of broken English. If they could both just understand each other, their productivity would be higher.

 

Sorry, talk so much until I lost my point. What I'm saying is, some employers are truly short sighted, caring more about upfront cost than overall value.

they are suppressing salary indirectly, but in certain industries also supress the cost too. if not outside workshop wont be charging only sub 100 for car servicing liao. it work both ways.

having said that, like many of us mention. its more of the lousy FT that cannot do work that we have to work with that make us feel angry and wonder why. imagine if all the FT that can do work and better than us are in PMT. how many of us will dare to voice out loudly that FW are snatching our rice bowl??

[Ingenius]

Dont see how different they are from you who just come here to bash PAP.

in fact, base on the % of contribution of their post to politics. you sure look more like creating the account here to bash PAP.

thanks joseph22, you just said the obvious.

[Hydrocarbon]

What offence ? Yours is an objective discussion and sharing, instead of starting with "the pap internet brigade .." . anyway i do see where you are coming from and the valid points you have made.

 

Haha.. My worry is that since there is not much way of conveying tone online, especially between people with vastly differing opinion, it's easy to offend others and get into a flame war, which isn't constructive. So, if I mis-read something, just say sorry, and move on lor.

 

Ah well, politics, always a touchy topic online, along with religion.

[Oblong]

I believe the leaders are aware of the gini coefficient and the relative groups/ deciles making up that number.

 

It is a matter of overall strategy and choice/ decisions.

 

As vb said previously (when he was in mcys), they have the numbers.

 

I would think previously (15 -20 years ago), the makeup is similar to an olive seed. Tapered to both ends and big/ fat/ wide in the middle.

Especially for the past 3-5 years, fat middle is moving down slowly to the mid-lower end, while the decision makers try to attract the high end.

I do believe they did try to fill up the lower middle since it was easier to give out pink IC to such than those with more options. Msm should have the facts on new citizens during 2006-2011 in terms of household income.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Oblong

[Lancedrift688]

I am sure there are as many less successful ones out there. but my point is, the opportunity is out there as evidently cited, and it is up to individual to realise their potential and maximise their achievements. if one hasnt achieved success, dont blame on others or FTs. what you said about many times cannot find suitable candidate is very true, and that is exactly why we need FTs.

 

Long ago i went for a job interview at a organisation somewhere in yio chu kang, inside the very big building i saw hordes of workers of indian nationality (hundreds of them). during the interview i was asked to rate myself for the skill set required, and i rated as 7 out of 10. i was outright rejected politely, as the interviewer told me, they take in people who are at last 8 to 9 out of 10 proficiency in the skill set. i understood till today, because the org needed the best and right person to get the job done, not just a singaporean. today, few of my superiors are PRs, and earning much more than me. Why dont i question why our gahment doesnt protect its ccitizen and give the best job for its people ? i hold no grudges because i understand it is only because they are better than me, and it is for the good of the organisation. if it is not for this meritocracy system, we woudnt even be near where we are today. The gahment did right to attract investments to sgp, build the infrastrcuutre and a ecological system, educate the young. this is good enough to give them the opportunity to succeeed. for one, i dont have the entitlement mentality that our spoilt youth are so embeded with.

 

I'm one of the 'spoilt youth' you're referring to and I take offence to that. Yes, we do have a few super vocal ones who complain about everything. Does that make all the youth spoilt? We don't have an entitlement mentality, all we're asking for is for the govt to tighten restrictions on the number of PMETs allowed into Singapore so that competition isn't as crazy as now. Do we want competition? Yes. Do we want too much competition as is the case now? No.

 

Also hor, we're not asking the govt to reserve all the top jobs for us. If a FT is more competent than a local, he should get it without a doubt. But you see, now the problem is, locals are steadily getting shoved out of mid and higher management positions by FTs in every sector, but especially in the IT and banking sectors. So are you trying to say that Singaporeans are completely inferior to foreigners when it comes to these jobs? And another question is, do we have enough jobs to cater to BOTH locals and FTs? I'm working in a big engineering company and I have quite a few FT colleagues. Some are damn good, some are alright and some are completely CMI. In short, they are a lot like us. Got some good ones, got some bad eggs. But the problem now is that locals, whether excellent or lousy at their job, are getting phased out in favour of a cheaper foreigner.

[Joseph22]

I apologise, I mis-read your previous comment. No offense, I hope.

 

FTs might actually be suppressing wages, maybe not directly, but they provide a cheaper alternative for a similar standard of work. Then again, Walmart became one of the biggest retailers in the world by charging less for their goods, not more. I think part of the issue is, as you and some other MCF-ers have mentioned, that some of the youth have entitlement mentality, wanting a higher salary for being a Singaporean, or complaining about FTs being able to afford the same service at a lower cost. But the other part of the issue is also that not all employes look at value, but at cost.

 

If person A costs $10/hour and can do 1 unit of work per hour, and person B costs $25/hour and can do 3 units of work per hour, who is more valuable to the organisation? Obviously, when it is so clear cut, it's easy to hire person B over person A. But when both are submitting their resume (both with similar levels of education and experience), and the employer sees that the asking salary of person A is lower, without thinking of the future, and whether person A (who might be a foreigner) can integrate with the organisation structure already in place as well as communicate with the rest.

 

I've been to meetings where the company has FTs who speak English, but cannot understand each other, and as an outside, I would have to translate from one form of broken English to another form of broken English. If they could both just understand each other, their productivity would be higher.

 

Sorry, talk so much until I lost my point. What I'm saying is, some employers are truly short sighted, caring more about upfront cost than overall value.

to be fair on the bold portion. On employment font, how will the management or hiring manager be able to tell that the person B can do 3 unit? and the person A can do only 1 unit?? its from the word of mouth. but if person A is better at presentation (sometimes its called lying without guilt ) then there is nothing we can do. its not possible to fault him.

[Hydrocarbon]

they are suppressing salary indirectly, but in certain industries also supress the cost too. if not outside workshop wont be charging only sub 100 for car servicing liao. it work both ways.

having said that, like many of us mention. its more of the lousy FT that cannot do work that we have to work with that make us feel angry and wonder why. imagine if all the FT that can do work and better than us are in PMT. how many of us will dare to voice out loudly that FW are snatching our rice bowl??

 

I don't think people will complain when cost goes down, only when it keeps going up and salaries don't rise along with it.

 

Anyway, something I heard before: Give a man a hundred dollars, and he will be happy. Give him two hundred dollars and take away a hundred and he will hate you.

 

Man will always compare themselves to others, and sometimes it causes jealousy, so from time to time, we should remind ourselves of our blessings.

 

With regards to the second portion of your comment, that's what I'm referring to when I was mentioning person A and B, cost over value. Two mediocre people who can communicate can produce more than two superstars who can't communicate. It's just that not all HR or hiring bosses see that at the onset.

[Joseph22]

thanks joseph22, you just said the obvious.

Felt it uncalled for just because people have different view to start calling people bridgant or something when in actual facts, both are the same just from different side of the line.

[Joseph22]

I don't think people will complain when cost goes down, only when it keeps going up and salaries don't rise along with it.

 

Anyway, something I heard before: Give a man a hundred dollars, and he will be happy. Give him two hundred dollars and take away a hundred and he will hate you.

 

Man will always compare themselves to others, and sometimes it causes jealousy, so from time to time, we should remind ourselves of our blessings.

 

With regards to the second portion of your comment, that's what I'm referring to when I was mentioning person A and B, cost over value. Two mediocre people who can communicate can produce more than two superstars who can't communicate. It's just that not all HR or hiring bosses see that at the onset.

see my posting after that. we sometimes forget that management are also human not prophet or fortune teller that can see the future. so they can only assess what they see now. so we all better learn to sell ourself

[Lancedrift688]

Dont see how different they are from you who just come here to bash PAP.

in fact, base on the % of contribution of their post to politics. you sure look more like creating the account here to bash PAP.

 

 

I'm not surprised he said that given viceroy's statements earlier.

[Roh96]

Just over today lunch, my friend share with me his story. His FT boss 'run road' during the haze crisis (the week where psi hit 400). Applied 2 weeks leave and book an air ticket to Australia. When crisis occur, FT will 'run road' first.

[Lancedrift688]

Just over today lunch, my friend share with me his story. His FT boss 'run road' during the haze crisis (the week where psi hit 400). Applied 2 weeks leave and book an air ticket to Australia. When crisis occur, FT will 'run road' first.

 

Let's face it lah, if we could, we sinkies would run too...