Section 377a repealed

[mersaylee]

29 minutes ago, inlinesix said:

I relates a story of a gay fren who had dated char bo.  But he still don't like char bo.

Ppl here think that he did not try hard enuf.

Similarly, your ancestors will BE of the opinion that YOU did not TRY hard ENOUGH to reform your SON.

😂

I'll try hard to convince if not confuse them...

敬茶。。。敬酒。。。😁

[Hoseyboh]

 

[inlinesix]

33 minutes ago, Tianmo said:

other than the whacking part, I agree with you on the rest. 

But I think naturally, kids somehow can tell from a very young age. From 4-5 yrs old, they already know there is a different between boys and girls, so personally I think it depends on when they started this disorientation. If it happens  right after puberty, I think no turning back, but if it happens later part in life, maybe got hope. 

And yah, not difficult to see from what I have said, I am no supporter of legalizing it. I can accept them, but keep them away underground. 

Talking about lau gay man, there is this f**king lau gay at KPT.  He would cycle to KPT every evening about 7 pm plus, and spend 1 hour in the male toilet fully naked, staying in the shower room, and coming out whenever he hear the door opens. Many young boys train there in the late afternoon, and by 7pm, that place is rather dark and quiet liao.  I told all those boys I know to stay away and not to communicate with that farker. 

That's a paedophile la

[Vratenza]

39 minutes ago, Tianmo said:

other than the whacking part, I agree with you on the rest. 

But I think naturally, kids somehow can tell from a very young age. From 4-5 yrs old, they already know there is a different between boys and girls, so personally I think it depends on when they started this disorientation. If it happens  right after puberty, I think no turning back, but if it happens later part in life, maybe got hope. 

And yah, not difficult to see from what I have said, I am no supporter of legalizing it. I can accept them, but keep them away underground. 

Talking about lau gay man, there is this f**king lau gay at KPT.  He would cycle to KPT every evening about 7 pm plus, and spend 1 hour in the male toilet fully naked, staying in the shower room, and coming out whenever he hear the door opens. Many young boys train there in the late afternoon, and by 7pm, that place is rather dark and quiet liao.  I told all those boys I know to stay away and not to communicate with that farker. 

I respect your view on not being able to accept legalizing gay sex. 

But I feel I must correct you on bringing up the extreme example that is not fair to majority of the LGBT group. 

Similar to quite a few videos being posted on seemingly overtly effeminated males behaving outlandishly and of poor taste in public. 

Many of the closet gays I know in my professional capacity (I see quite a bit more than my fellow colleagues to be honest),  my colleagues and friends, they are not outlandishly overt in their behaviour to draw attention to their sexual orientation. In fact,  you probably need a sensitive "gaydar"  to pick up the subtle cues in their dressing,  manner of speech,  body movements. All of my gay colleagues friends  prefer to be recognised and defined for their professional capabilities rather than their sexual orientation. 

My point being,  the 377A is an archaic law that is as old as our colonial master's linkage. For something that happens between 2 consulting adults in their own private space, which is not enforcible,  why should we insist on keeping it? 

What is important, is for society as a whole, to understand fully that gayness is a product of nature and not nuture. Historically,  any attempt to convert/"treat"  homosexuality has resulted in catastrophic disaster immeasurable suffering to the individual and an insult to human rights of the individual. 

This is getting into TLDR territory,  I'll cover the same sex marriage issue in a separate post. 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Vratenza

[Vratenza]

This article gives a historical basis of 377A as well as how quite a few of former British colonies have already repealed the law.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/section-377a-gay-sex-law-history-countries-lgbt-repeal-2885976

[Lala81]

52 minutes ago, Hoseyboh said:

 

I feel more disturbed by the audience. 

 

[Lala81]

1 hour ago, Vratenza said:

What is important, is for society as a whole, to understand fully that gayness is a product of nature and not nuture. 

I did some reading years back when my friend was telling me that gender norms should be established early on (My son was wearing some pink or cutesy rompers/tees that my daughter wore).

I dunno who sponsored the research (it could well be right wing conservative backed funding), but the study i read conclude there's evidence that firm gender norms in early formative years is beneficial towards a firm gender identity in young children.

Anyway homosexuality is a well established social phenotype. As of now, there is no suggestion of a genetic genotype, ie the "gay" gene. Highly likely, there are  genetic elements to it, but it could well be epi-genetic. So i would say your statement is debatable based on current evidence.

I certainly don't advocate changing one's natural inclination. But social imprinting, i would hesitate to say it doesn't work in very early stages for borderline cases who may swing both ways.

For example, left handedness is very clearly a natural inclination and an established phenotype. But social imprinting has made many left handed humans able to write with their right hand to a much higher competence than the right handed group.

 

Anyway I fully agree with what the Govt has done. My stance would be similar. I have nothing against the minority group. But I also don't agree with completely upending normal social conventions. 

You can see from the BBC article, that they are obviously framing it as a continuation of a struggle towards "equality". However given the resounding lack of applause throughout the 10-15mins LHL spent on the topic, it's pretty clear what the silent majority thinks.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Lala81

[Mustank]

1 hour ago, Tianmo said:

other than the whacking part, I agree with you on the rest. 

But I think naturally, kids somehow can tell from a very young age. From 4-5 yrs old, they already know there is a different between boys and girls, so personally I think it depends on when they started this disorientation. If it happens  right after puberty, I think no turning back, but if it happens later part in life, maybe got hope. 

And yah, not difficult to see from what I have said, I am no supporter of legalizing it. I can accept them, but keep them away underground. 

Talking about lau gay man, there is this f**king lau gay at KPT.  He would cycle to KPT every evening about 7 pm plus, and spend 1 hour in the male toilet fully naked, staying in the shower room, and coming out whenever he hear the door opens. Many young boys train there in the late afternoon, and by 7pm, that place is rather dark and quiet liao.  I told all those boys I know to stay away and not to communicate with that farker. 

That f**ker boh tio pah?

[t0y0ta]

25 minutes ago, Lala81 said:

I did some reading years back when my friend was telling me that gender norms should be established early on (My son was wearing some pink or cutesy rompers/tees that my daughter wore).

I dunno who sponsored the research (it could well be right wing conservative backed funding), but the study i read conclude there's evidence that firm gender norms in early formative years is beneficial towards a firm gender identity in young children.

Anyway homosexuality is a well established social phenotype. As of now, there is no suggestion of a genetic genotype, ie the "gay" gene. Highly likely, there are  genetic elements to it, but it could well be epi-genetic. So i would say your statement is debatable based on current evidence.

I certainly don't advocate changing one's natural inclination. But social imprinting, i would hesitate to say it doesn't work in very early stages for borderline cases who may swing both ways.

For example, left handedness is very clearly a natural inclination and an established phenotype. But social imprinting has made many left handed humans able to write with their right hand to a much higher competence than the right handed group.

 

Anyway I fully agree with what the Govt has done. My stance would be similar. I have nothing against the minority group. But I also don't agree with completely upending normal social conventions. 

You can see from the BBC article, that they are obviously framing it as a continuation of a struggle towards "equality". However given the resounding lack of applause throughout the 10-15mins LHL spent on the topic, it's pretty clear what the silent majority thinks.

 

 

LGBT many are very loud and typically act victim any chance they get.

Actually most of us are cool with them and no issues about what they do in their own private settings.

Anyway my scientific mind thinks that LGBT is a nature generated Earth defence mechanism - LGBT take over world = no more offspring = less humans harming Earth. 

[Benarsenal]

3 hours ago, Beregond said:

i got a female neighbour, i think 30+- same case also, took me a few year to confirm she is female, alway with her mum, very shy and quiet family, i think her mum make peace with it. 

Last time i got a male class mate, all the boys in the class shun him, I still remember the awkwardness of her mum face when she visit school. 

The key is if we found out our kids have such orientation or thinking at young age, what should be our correct or immediate action? U walk with your kids and spot 2 man hugging, your young kids ask u why? How u ans him?  Do u say its wrong cannot do that, dun do that, condemn the action? or u say that is their freedom, its legal and acceptable in singapore??

If my kids have such thought , i will wack him , teach him ,correct him, send him to doctor , i will do everything i can to change him back. I will not simply accept it. Maybe there are other parents who will behave differently from me, maybe they will say 'hey being gay is ok', if he is gay , so be it?? Maybe they are cool with it?  

In the olden day parents will disown their son or daughter if they have such orientation, Of course now we are more educated, we know this is a sickness, we will accept them if it cannot be cure.

But the fundamental that this is wrong cannot be change. By repealing 377a, its like suddenly we are saying its not wrong to be gay or its not wrong to engage in gay activity?

This go against all our culture, believe and religion. And what do we gain from it?

We even go to promote it?? Now kids will start to feel ' hey pink dot is cool'? wtf? being gay and lesbian is cool? Do we even want to give such thought to our kids? 

If any 1 got young kids or young niece or nephew, u will know how good or easily they pick up bad habit. I had to control myself super hard to avoiding teaching them the wrong stuff. We all know how easily kids and teen can pick up smoking and drugs. 

And here we are, our gov say its ok for guys  to f--k each other a--. Imagine some tiko peh can just jio your teens son for a quickie in the public swimming son now. 

 

 

 

Bro, I am a bit disturbed by your thoughts about this.

First of all, please don't conflate gays with perverts, paedophiles and rapists. The vast majority of gay people are decent, normal, regular folks like you and me. Being gay simply means you are sexually attracted to someone of the same gender (not kids), that is all. Honestly, if they don't say, you won't even know they are gay. Frankly I find heterosexual guys who rape women far more aborrent.

It's OK to be religious, to believe in what you believe. But like I said before, whether you like it or not, LGBTQ is a reality. You don't have to like it, you don't have to encourage it, you don't have to tell your kids about it, but you definitely cannot keep your head in the sand about it.

I feel that the government has actually tried their best to strike a balance with this. They've already moved to safeguard their definition of marriage, and their stance is that they clearly still want to encourage the family in the traditional sense (male, female, kids), as per the wish of most of the population. Repealing 377A is simply a message of "we will not prosecute two consenting adults for what they do in private", which is the right way in an open, non-communist society. Whether you see that as encouraging gay lifestyle or not is really a matter of your interpretation.

For me, not that I will have children any time soon, but if my son/daughter comes up to me one day and says they're gay, I will be open-minded enough to be accepting and encouraging. I am firmly of the belief that adults should be free to live their life as they wish, so long as they do not bring undue harm to others.

[Vratenza]

13 minutes ago, Lala81 said:

I did some reading years back when my friend was telling me that gender norms should be established early on (My son was wearing some pink or cutesy rompers/tees that my daughter wore).

I dunno who sponsored the research (it could well be right wing conservative backed funding), but the study i read conclude there's evidence that firm gender norms in early formative years is beneficial towards a firm gender identity in young children.

Anyway homosexuality is a well established social phenotype. As of now, there is no suggestion of a genetic genotype, ie the "gay" gene. Highly likely, there are  genetic elements to it, but it could well be epi-genetic. So i would say your statement is debatable based on current evidence.

I certainly don't advocate changing one's natural inclination. But social imprinting, i would hesitate to say it doesn't work in very early stages for borderline cases who may swing both ways.

For example, left handedness is very clearly a natural inclination and an established phenotype. But social imprinting has made many left handed humans able to write with their right hand to a much higher competence than the right handed group.

 

Homosexuality is not just unique to homo sapiens. It has been observed in other members of the animal kindom,  of note our closest ancestrally linked apes. Just because we do not yet have hard genetic evidence of gay phenotype does not mean it is not somehow within the epiggenetic level as what you rightly mentioned. 

Handedness is a skill that can be trained to force the natural inclination directed by the brain. But that is just a demonstration of skill training. Nothing to do with the natural inclination. 

Just a mental exercise in the reverse manner.

 

1) Just like a boy can be brought up from young being dressed in floral dresses,  kept long hair,  only be given dolls and makeup sets to play,  having male role models behaving in the same exact pattern. End of the day,  when time comes to puberty, do the boy still default to finding the female peers sexually attractive as a matter or biological programming or be totally trained to find other males sexually attractive? 

2) I have read up on many atheistic bookss,  watched many atheistic themed videos and many of which will touch on gay males brought up in strict catholic families,  being immersed from young the biblical teachings abornishing homosexuality, being incalcated on what and how to behave heterosexually,  being ingrained on how a real man should behave. Yet, many of them,  coming of age,  their alternative sexual orientation seem to break through all the years of social construct unquestionably. Also many of them share stories of how the families tried to "chase out the devil in them",  underwent sessions of religious counsellings and even religious bootcamps meant for "correcting"  their sinful thoughts. Eventually,  all of them did not get "treated"  and break away from their families and their religion. 

So if you are saying that social influence can turn one homosexual... Then my above example will be evidence that homosexuality is something that it is not something that any form of training or social influence can easily "correct". 

[Stary]

Funny, was it only me here who see it that the 377A repeal is infact, a big loss for the LGBT group?

You see, by repealing the 377A (which is useless and not enforce anyway) , they have just lost their end goal, which is the legalised marriage part.

Now, local legalised marriage for LGBT is not going to happen for a long foreseeable future.  That end goal has just been put to rest.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Starry

[Stratovarius]

2 hours ago, Tianmo said:

other than the whacking part, I agree with you on the rest. 

But I think naturally, kids somehow can tell from a very young age. From 4-5 yrs old, they already know there is a different between boys and girls, so personally I think it depends on when they started this disorientation. If it happens  right after puberty, I think no turning back, but if it happens later part in life, maybe got hope. 

And yah, not difficult to see from what I have said, I am no supporter of legalizing it. I can accept them, but keep them away underground. 

Talking about lau gay man, there is this f**king lau gay at KPT.  He would cycle to KPT every evening about 7 pm plus, and spend 1 hour in the male toilet fully naked, staying in the shower room, and coming out whenever he hear the door opens. Many young boys train there in the late afternoon, and by 7pm, that place is rather dark and quiet liao.  I told all those boys I know to stay away and not to communicate with that farker. 

u call policeman. ask him go insai at 7pm. see how. 

[Lala81]

8 minutes ago, Vratenza said:

Homosexuality is not just unique to homo sapiens. It has been observed in other members of the animal kindom,  of note our closest ancestrally linked apes. Just because we do not yet have hard genetic evidence of gay phenotype does not mean it is not somehow within the epiggenetic level as what you rightly mentioned. 

Handedness is a skill that can be trained to force the natural inclination directed by the brain. But that is just a demonstration of skill training. Nothing to do with the natural inclination. 

Just a mental exercise in the reverse manner.

 

1) Just like a boy can be brought up from young being dressed in floral dresses,  kept long hair,  only be given dolls and makeup sets to play,  having male role models behaving in the same exact pattern. End of the day,  when time comes to puberty, do the boy still default to finding the female peers sexually attractive as a matter or biological programming or be totally trained to find other males sexually attractive? 

2) I have read up on many atheistic bookss,  watched many atheistic themed videos and many of which will touch on gay males brought up in strict catholic families,  being immersed from young the biblical teachings abornishing homosexuality, being incalcated on what and how to behave heterosexually,  being ingrained on how a real man should behave. Yet, many of them,  coming of age,  their alternative sexual orientation seem to break through all the years of social construct unquestionably. Also many of them share stories of how the families tried to "chase out the devil in them",  underwent sessions of religious counsellings and even religious bootcamps meant for "correcting"  their sinful thoughts. Eventually,  all of them did not get "treated"  and break away from their families and their religion. 

So if you are saying that social influence can turn one homosexual... Then my above example will be evidence that homosexuality is something that it is not something that any form of training or social influence can easily "correct". 

Yes it is a well demonstrated natural phenotype.
If u agree that attraction to a certain phenotype/gender is chemically mediated, then crude social methods is no different from attempting to "rewire" your brain (via an ineffective method).

The infamous stories of rampant sodomy in male only institutions cannot surely be only nature alone. Especially since anecdotally many of them are heterosexual outside. Bi-sexuals possible. But how much of a population is naturally bisexual?
Some primates who are not alphas exhibit more homosexuality behaviour. So are there alpha primates who rule a tribe/primate family only of homosexuals?

1) Good question, do we know for sure? How many percent would actually change orientation. 

2) Your reasoning is flawed. If the phenotype is established, it's almost certainly going to fail given that the earliest form of gender imprinting like really pre-school level failed.

If my boy showed feminine traits at say age 4, I certainly won't force the issue (though as some people  espouse here, they will still try like the failed catholic examples).

.

.

.
Actually, I'm quite liberal one. I am just arguing for the sake of arguing... 😁

 

 

 

 

[Beregond]

35 minutes ago, Benarsenal said:

For me, not that I will have children any time soon, but if my son/daughter comes up to me one day and says they're gay, I will be open-minded enough to be accepting and encouraging. I am firmly of the belief that adults should be free to live their life as they wish, so long as they do not bring undue harm to others.

So if say u found out your my son/daughter have such orientation at young age. say like primary school. 

Will u try to change / correct / educate them back ? 

Or just leave them alone and grow up that way as if there is nothing wrong? 

[inlinesix]

4 minutes ago, Beregond said:

So if say u found out your my son/daughter have such orientation at young age. say like primary school. 

Will u try to change / correct / educate them back ? 

Or just leave them alone and grow up that way as if there is nothing wrong? 

I am not sure whether the correction will result in the kids hating the family.

From thereon, everything goes downhill.

Including dropouts from school.

[Lala81]

3 minutes ago, Beregond said:

So if say u found out your my son/daughter have such orientation at young age. say like primary school. 

Will u try to change / correct / educate them back ? 

Or just leave them alone and grow up that way as if there is nothing wrong? 

I think every parent at heart, just wants to spare their kids a lifetime of pain and suffering.

So I would say just face the facts. Upper primary school, i think it's pretty much set liao. Lower primary school, I don't think most boys/girls have strong gender preferences yet. 

[Lala81]

2 minutes ago, inlinesix said:

I am not sure whether the correction will result in the kids hating the family.

From thereon, everything goes downhill.

Including dropouts from school.

I don't get the last sentence. This is not dyslexia or what. Why drop out from school?

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Lala81