How problematic is VW's 7 speed DSG?

[Munhua]

I'll gladly trade dry clutch w torque converter anytime for peace of mind motoring.

 

There may b transmission losses, but the wear is minimal.

Agreed. Those who wat to argue 7sp dry clutch still good then best of luck when mu breaks down. It is a nasty experience coupled with bad vcs MacPherson aftersales svc.

 

I still feel that other brands like merc, BMW, ford, Volvo GB are more reliable. If it is not true why VW keep dropping their selling prices to clear stock given the bad reputation? Even polo selling $99.9k??? Do you dare to face the consequences when ur VW car breaks down?

[Yuan]

 

The "problem" you are describing applies to all types of dual-clutch gearbox not just the 7dsg (i.e. the clutch is worn out). That's the nature of the dual-clutch gearbox. How long the clutch last depends on your driving style. If you always let the car crawl in gear 1, then you will wear out the clutch faster. If someone said their clutch worn out in 6 months under normal proper driving conditions then it is pretty hard to believe.

 

The VW 7dsg gained notoriety not because of clutch wear and tear but because of the fried MU caused by synthetic oil corrosion causing the car to go into neutral gear. This problem has been fixed by changing to mineral gearbox oil. If the fried MU problem has been resolved, I dont see why 7dsg should be more problematic than any other dual-clutch gearboxes.

 

I think some drivers are not used to the idio-syncracies of the dual-clutch gearbox maybe quick jump the gun and think there is problem. of course all the bad publicity and misinformation about the 7dsg also exacerbate the FUD.

 

I am keen to know how the mineral gearbox oil can "fix" the DSG problem.

 

I am sure my fellow bros and sis in VAGSG forum would be delighted to know how and where too.

 

I am also driving a TSI 1.4l VW Golf equipped with the DQ 200 gearbox. I only change my MU once and my car is into its 120,000 km. It survived the tracks, B roads and other parts of Malaysia and of course, the toil of start stop driving conditions in Singapore. I have not experienced any juddering issue and my clutch is still the original piece when it leaves the factory in Germany more than 3 years ago.

 

@Shellvpower, you should read this thread and this page also.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Yuan

[Fuelsaver]

Agreed. Those who wat to argue 7sp dry clutch still good then best of luck when mu breaks down. It is a nasty experience coupled with bad vcs MacPherson aftersales svc.

 

I still feel that other brands like merc, BMW, ford, Volvo GB are more reliable. If it is not true why VW keep dropping their selling prices to clear stock given the bad reputation? Even polo selling $99.9k??? Do you dare to face the consequences when ur VW car breaks down?

Notwithstanding if my fren has hidden other issues, he revealed so far only his polo 1.4 NA engine stalled once when reaching home carpark n the always recurring low speed jerking, other issues were normal wear n tear like replacing brake rotors around 70k km.

 

Frankly, not a car brand that I wish to own, even though I admit the interior built is quite upmarket. I just can't bear w such downtime n cost when drivetrain system has issues, even assuming it happens at some 30-50k km. who knows, as mileage increases, what other implications r there? Replace gb? Who pays? Me?

[inlinesix]

 

At the same time there are millions of cars with this 7dsg which have no problem. I think your statement is typical FUD which makes it sound like every car equipped with 7dsg is failing all over. VW would have gone bankrupt by now fixing and replacing these gearboxes if they are failing in 6 months.

 

It may be true that the 7dsg is not as reliable as other type of gearboxes but it certainly very far from the 100% failure rate which some posts here seems to implied. On the other hand, 7dsg (coupled with the 1.4T TFSI engine) has many advantages over other cars (incl. performance, fuel efficiency etc). Best is for buyers to weigh all the pros and cons.

 

Malaysia also got a lot of problem with 7 spd DSG until owner has to protest outside VW MY headquarter le.

 

BMW 118 with 3 cylinder & AT consumed 6.4L/100km for city circle

 

Golf 1.4TSI that produces 130hp consumed 6.2L/100km for city circle.

 

No a lot diff le.

 

Unladen weight of both BMW & Golf is 1,395kg & 1,249kg

 

These data are quoted directly from BMW & VW Germany portal.

 

gearbox issue is broken down into 2 parts

 

1. MU failure - The electrical parts

 

2. Clutch - slippage

 

the 1.6T engine also has a fair share of failure, just that people are smart enough not to "advertise" this failure , else resale value will be affected.

 

What kind of failure?

 

I am interested to know as there are a lot of cars on the road with that engine, like Peugeot, Citroen, BMW & Mini.

 

[inlinesix]

So u mean the BMW 116i no wonder pml is not selling anymore replace with BMW 2 series active tourer. Having bitten once I won't settle for a problematic luxury brand again.

 

Pls. hor. It is not up to PML to decide.

 

N18 was developed by Mini & PSA Group. Both Mini & PSA Group was using it for FWD configuration.

 

When F20 was launched in 2011, N18 was re-configured as RWD & renamed as N13.

 

When i8 was launched in 2014, it was start of the new modular block. 118/218/318 is using the same modular block as i8 with different configuration hor.

[zerobim08]

 

I am keen to know how the mineral gearbox oil can "fix" the DSG problem.

 

I am sure my fellow bros and sis in VAGSG forum would be delighted to know how and where too.

 

I am also driving a TSI 1.4l VW Golf equipped with the DQ 200 gearbox. I only change my MU once and my car is into its 120,000 km. It survived the tracks, B roads and other parts of Malaysia and of course, the toil of start stop driving conditions in Singapore. I have not experienced any juddering issue and my clutch is still the original piece when it leaves the factory in Germany more than 3 years ago.

 

@Shellvpower, you should read this thread and this page also.

 

How? In the recall fix, VW said that synthetic oil in high temperature released sulfur which caused corrosion of the mechatronic unit (MU) casing leading to oil seeping in and frying the electronics inside. Mineral oil dont do this. Whether you believe them is another matter.

 

imo, I think it is half truth. The other half is probably constant high heat reduces the lifespan of the MU (i.e. high heat caused by a certain driving pattern when you use your car mainly in start-stop crawling traffic most of the time).

 

I have seen they took apart the 7dsg and there are not that many components that made up the gearbox. Most of the components are mainly chunk of steel (which are unlikely to be cause of the unreliability). The most complicated seems to be the MU which controls the gear change, but this too is enclosed in a steel casing with only a few protrduing moving parts.

 

Leaving aside the FUD, the only component that can cause major issue is the MU. Looking at it rationally, if your driving pattern dont cause major heat build up (that can fry the electronics inside MU), I dont see how this 7dsg is any different from other type of gearboxes in terms of reliability.

 

I seen many of the FUD also complains about clutch. From what I seen from the tear-down, the clutch which are made up multiple steel plates. To have this failed, the possibilities are either the plates are worn out or there is manufacturing defect of the plates. Like some of the FUD, to wear out those clutch plates in a short time (like 6 months) will really require some pretty abnormal driving/conditions to achieve.

[Zippaboy]

but mineral oil dont hold up to heat as well as synthetic oil.

 

The gearbox is extremely hot in start-stop traffic and in worst during a heavy traffic jam.

[zerobim08]

 

Malaysia also got a lot of problem with 7 spd DSG until owner has to protest outside VW MY headquarter le.

 

BMW 118 with 3 cylinder & AT consumed 6.4L/100km for city circle

 

Golf 1.4TSI that produces 130hp consumed 6.2L/100km for city circle.

 

No a lot diff le.

 

Unladen weight of both BMW & Golf is 1,395kg & 1,249kg

 

These data are quoted directly from BMW & VW Germany portal.

 

What kind of failure?

 

I am interested to know as there are a lot of cars on the road with that engine, like Peugeot, Citroen, BMW & Mini.

 

 

I think those protest in M'sia were before the recall. Of course VW should be handed some brickbats for not handling the issue well by treating buyers outside Europe (where most of the dsg MU failure occured) with no urgency.

 

I think the 118 cost a fair bit more than Golf. Which cars give you the same tech used in a premium class car but at a bb car price? VW sells tonnes of Golf in Europe essentially a bread-butter car. If the dsg is such a major problem, would consumers still buy these Golf in the millions.

 

Look at it this way. Dont talk about premium class car. VW in Singapore is mainly competing with bb Jap/Kor cars with the Golf/Jetta/Polo. Put aside the FUD about reliability, in terms of performance/efficiency/driveability these VW group cars out-classed and out-gunned most of the Jap/Kor bb cars.

 

I am not affliated to VW and I would not advice anyone buying their cars without due considerations of the pros and cons. If you have phobia about reliability (since you heard many horror stories whether true or unfounded) then don't buy. Not worth risking having a mental breakdown everyday worrying whether your car is going to breakdown. But if you are willing to take a calculated risk about reliability in exchange for performance/efficiency/fun, then why not? Personally I think these cars with 1.4 tfsi + dsg is just much more fun and better drive than any of the bb Jap/Kor cars. Then again, if you are indifferent and just need four wheels to get you from point A to B, then maybe look elsewhere.

Edited August 5, 2015 by zerobim08

[Mercury1]

Majority if the VW sold in Europe are manual no? i doubt they would be hugely impacted by the DSG issues we see here

 

 

 

I think those protest in M'sia were before the recall. Of course VW should be handed some brickbats for not handling the issue well by treating buyers outside Europe (where most of the dsg MU failure occured) with no urgency.

 

I think the 118 cost a fair bit more than Golf. Which cars give you the same tech used in a premium class car but at a bb car price? VW sells tonnes of Golf in Europe essentially a bread-butter car. If the dsg is such a major problem, would consumers still buy these Golf in the millions.

 

Look at it this way. Dont talk about premium class car. VW in Singapore is mainly competing with bb Jap/Kor cars with the Golf/Jetta/Polo. Put aside the FUD about reliability, in terms of performance/efficiency/driveability these VW group cars out-classed and out-gunned most of the Jap/Kor bb cars.

 

I am not affliated to VW and I would not advice anyone buying their cars without due considerations of the pros and cons. If you have phobia about reliability (since you heard many horror stories whether true or unfounded) then don't buy. Not worth risking having a mental breakdown everyday worrying whether your car is going to breakdown. But if you are willing to take a calculated risk about reliability in exchange for performance/efficiency/fun, then why not? Personally I think these cars with 1.4 tfsi + dsg is just much more fun and better drive than any of the bb Jap/Kor cars. Then again, if you are indifferent and just need four wheels to get you from point A to B, then maybe look elsewhere.

[zerobim08]

Majority if the VW sold in Europe are manual no? i doubt they would be hugely impacted by the DSG issues we see here

 

 

 

Small percentage out of many millions still equal lots of DSG out there. In China there are tonnes of around. Is there any more news recently that cars with dsg are going into false neutral causing accidents. Well, the false neutral (due to MU failure) is what got everyone riled-up, isnt it?

 

Has the recall mineral oil fix (plus certain enhancements in later dsg) overcome the issue? Nay-sayers will always be negative and think time is at a standstill (and all the engineers are mindless idiots who will take millenium to fix any issues)

[Stratovarius]

 

I think those protest in M'sia were before the recall. Of course VW should be handed some brickbats for not handling the issue well by treating buyers outside Europe (where most of the dsg MU failure occured) with no urgency.

 

I think the 118 cost a fair bit more than Golf. Which cars give you the same tech used in a premium class car but at a bb car price? VW sells tonnes of Golf in Europe essentially a bread-butter car. If the dsg is such a major problem, would consumers still buy these Golf in the millions.

 

Look at it this way. Dont talk about premium class car. VW in Singapore is mainly competing with bb Jap/Kor cars with the Golf/Jetta/Polo. Put aside the FUD about reliability, in terms of performance/efficiency/driveability these VW group cars out-classed and out-gunned most of the Jap/Kor bb cars.

 

I am not affliated to VW and I would not advice anyone buying their cars without due considerations of the pros and cons. If you have phobia about reliability (since you heard many horror stories whether true or unfounded) then don't buy. Not worth risking having a mental breakdown everyday worrying whether your car is going to breakdown. But if you are willing to take a calculated risk about reliability in exchange for performance/efficiency/fun, then why not? Personally I think these cars with 1.4 tfsi + dsg is just much more fun and better drive than any of the bb Jap/Kor cars. Then again, if you are indifferent and just need four wheels to get you from point A to B, then maybe look elsewhere.

I believe alot of Golfs in EU are manual transmission. This can be seen in car mags (those import type) or car review shows or even if you happen to be there, take a look that the stick.

[zerobim08]

I believe alot of Golfs in EU are manual transmission. This can be seen in car mags (those import type) or car review shows or even if you happen to be there, take a look that the stick.

 

Then where does all the dsg gone to?

 

 

2 million produced with current daily production of 3500 (or 1.3 million a year). - CHina plant

 

http://www.grobgroup.com/en/news/newsletter/einzel/datum/zwei-millionen-getriebe-auf-grob-montagelinie-im-vw-werk-dalian.html

 

 

640K produced with with current daily production increase to 2000 (or 730K per year) - Europe plant

 

http://www.research-store.com/payloadasia/News/skoda_to_increase_production_capacity_of_dq_200_gearbox_at_vrchlabi_plant?productid=C8D56E43-176B-4199-90F6-5720CF86483D

Edited August 5, 2015 by zerobim08

[zerobim08]

but mineral oil dont hold up to heat as well as synthetic oil.

 

The gearbox is extremely hot in start-stop traffic and in worst during a heavy traffic jam.

 

I think the gearbox overheating cut-off will kick in before damage is done.

 

For the 7dsg (dry clutch), there is no oil in the clutch. So there is no oil cooling. The problem is the heat generated from the clutch (in prolonged start-stop traffic) caused the synthetic oil used to lubricate the gears to become caustic which then corroded the mechatronic unit (MU) casing resulting in oil seeping into the enclosed MU electronics thus frying it.

[Stratovarius]

 

Then where does all the dsg gone to?

 

 

2 million produced with current daily production of 3500 (or 1.3 million a year). - CHina plant

 

http://www.grobgroup.com/en/news/newsletter/einzel/datum/zwei-millionen-getriebe-auf-grob-montagelinie-im-vw-werk-dalian.html

 

 

640K produced with with current daily production increase to 2000 (or 730K per year) - Europe plant

 

http://www.research-store.com/payloadasia/News/skoda_to_increase_production_capacity_of_dq_200_gearbox_at_vrchlabi_plant?productid=C8D56E43-176B-4199-90F6-5720CF86483D

Keeping in garage as spares?

Number of parts produced =/= number of cars produced.

[zerobim08]

Keeping in garage as spares?

Number of parts produced =/= number of cars produced.

 

after you said this I did some digging and lo and behold found that three-quarter of the dsg produced in China plant were shifted to Toyota factory in Thailand to be used in the Corolla Altis starting from Apr this year. Apparently Toyota can't produce enough steel to make the pulley for CVT gearbox.

[Baal]

Huh.... Tyt in thai...what they do with all those dcts?

[Blackyv]

 

How? In the recall fix, VW said that synthetic oil in high temperature released sulfur which caused corrosion of the mechatronic unit (MU) casing leading to oil seeping in and frying the electronics inside. Mineral oil dont do this. Whether you believe them is another matter.

 

imo, I think it is half truth. The other half is probably constant high heat reduces the lifespan of the MU (i.e. high heat caused by a certain driving pattern when you use your car mainly in start-stop crawling traffic most of the time).

 

I have seen they took apart the 7dsg and there are not that many components that made up the gearbox. Most of the components are mainly chunk of steel (which are unlikely to be cause of the unreliability). The most complicated seems to be the MU which controls the gear change, but this too is enclosed in a steel casing with only a few protrduing moving parts.

 

Leaving aside the FUD, the only component that can cause major issue is the MU. Looking at it rationally, if your driving pattern dont cause major heat build up (that can fry the electronics inside MU), I dont see how this 7dsg is any different from other type of gearboxes in terms of reliability.

 

I seen many of the FUD also complains about clutch. From what I seen from the tear-down, the clutch which are made up multiple steel plates. To have this failed, the possibilities are either the plates are worn out or there is manufacturing defect of the plates. Like some of the FUD, to wear out those clutch plates in a short time (like 6 months) will really require some pretty abnormal driving/conditions to achieve.

 

umm..., can you provide me the answer to:

 

If i drive to KL using NSHW and maintain ave speed of 100-120Km/h non stop, will that driving pattern cause major heat build up?..

 

If i drive to KL using NSHW and maintain ave speed of 120-140Km/h non stop, will that driving pattern cause major heat build up?..

 

If i drive to KL using NSHW and maintain ave speed of 130-160Km/h non stop, will that driving pattern cause major heat build up?..

 

[zerobim08]

 

umm..., can you provide me the answer to:

 

If i drive to KL using NSHW and maintain ave speed of 100-120Km/h non stop, will that driving pattern cause major heat build up?..

 

If i drive to KL using NSHW and maintain ave speed of 120-140Km/h non stop, will that driving pattern cause major heat build up?..

 

If i drive to KL using NSHW and maintain ave speed of 130-160Km/h non stop, will that driving pattern cause major heat build up?..

 

No no and no.

 

The only time heat is generated is when clutch is engaged (during gear change) - mostly in low gear when you let car crawl in first gear without engaging the throttle. This is when clutch is slipping with plates rubbing against each other (so as to equalized mismatched torque on both engine and wheel ends of the drive shaft)

Edited August 5, 2015 by zerobim08